Cruisers Forum

Main Forum => Polls => Topic started by: mciai2000 on July 23, 2011, 10:51:59 pm



Title: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on July 23, 2011, 10:51:59 pm
Okay here is another poll that is of interest to me.  My 05 Jeep Liberty is on the fritz and am considering buying a new car so I need to know what toad you guys use?

Thanks

David


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: lghjr on July 23, 2011, 11:15:48 pm
Suzuki Vitara - 4 down.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bobander on July 24, 2011, 12:21:23 am
2003 Jeep Wrangler, 4 down.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on July 24, 2011, 12:51:59 am
2006 Jeep Liberty 4-down with Roadmaster tow bar and Unified tow brake.

(http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4038/5161179007_8d1fdc6468_z.jpg)

(http://farm7.static.flickr.com/6237/6263684266_611bdf5475_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: TomHanlon on July 24, 2011, 06:12:07 am
I have only tow once with the PC. I towed my wifes 2004 Jeep Liberty using the old set up from the previous motorhome. Big and very heavy Blue Ox tow bar, no supplemental brakes. I did get push a little when stopping.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bigbadjc on July 24, 2011, 09:30:04 am
We pull a Chevy HHR automatic four down with a Blue Ox towbar and an older Blue Ox braking system when I'm in states that require it or anywhere it's hilly.  Crossed the Rockies several times last year with no problems at all.  Only limitation is that Chevy says no towing over 65 mph, but I don't like to go any faster than that anyway.  By the way, I bought one of the switches to put in your fuse box so that you have only to bend over and flip it to rig for towing without running down your battery.

Jerry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on July 24, 2011, 11:06:07 am
David

We tow a 2004 Chevy Cavalier (2500# automatic) 4 down.  The tow bar is a Blue Ox Aladdin with Break Buddy as the supplemental breaking system.  The Aladdin is aluminum and weighs 36 pounds.  Same speed limitation of 65 MPH but do not need to pull any fuses.

I was surprised at how many newer cars equipped with automatics can be towed 4 down now.

Here is a link to the Motor Home Magazine towing guide. A lot of good information but there is more than a little advertizing.

http://www.motorhomemagazine.com/Dinghy-Towing/2011-Dinghy-Towing-Guide/

Remco website is also a good source of information.  They will tell you what needs to be done to your car to make it towable.

http://www.remcotowing.com/

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: billy on July 24, 2011, 11:57:22 am
07 Honda CR-V, 4 down. It does need to be run thru all the gears, no fuse to pull. I did wire a hot lead to the battery.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Bob Mahon on July 24, 2011, 12:11:01 pm
2007 Ford Edge (4600#), Blue Ox Aventa bar and Roadmaster Even Brake.
Auxilliary lighting system functions from PC and hot lead to Toad-Charge.
Tows fine but is a load on that little V10 (formerly on an Alpine Coach with 8.3 Cummins ISC).


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on July 24, 2011, 10:05:07 pm
I currently tow my  05 Jeep liberty 4 down with a demco system.  It is a diesel with lots of miles and is starting to give me headaches.  My wife has a mini cooper and I am thinking about towing that, but I am not sure the first lady is happy with that thought.  I might consider another Jeep, but quality remains an issue with Jeeps.

DJM


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on July 25, 2011, 12:00:07 am
I might consider another Jeep, but quality remains an issue with Jeeps. DJM
I am with you on that one.  Our 2006 Jeep Liberty gaser does not impress me at all regarding quality and all the rest.  My wife likes it a lot because it's cute to her.  It's her daily driver, and so that is why we have it.  I do like towing a 4x4 very much, but would not consider anything Chrylser again.  I'd look closer at the Ford and GM lineup, and anything else that is not a Chrysler.

Sorry if I insulted any Chrysler owners here.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on July 25, 2011, 12:57:25 pm
@Ron:

Every time my Jeep breaks down its $500.00.  It is way past nickel and dime stuff.  It is at the dealer now and they say 3 weeks before it is done, because they have so much work.  I am lucky my wife has a summer and winter car or I would be walking >:(

David


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on July 25, 2011, 02:38:40 pm
Our Liberty is a gaser and doesn't require money......yet.  It's just awefully irritating to drive.  The active handling/traction control is near dangerous.  When you need to get going fast, the engine likes to slow down so you don't lose control.  It over reacts way too much from the throttle action of the driver .

One other irritation which is now an industry trend, is the lack of a passenger side & rear door key hole.  When on vacation, we don't carry the huge bulky key with integrated keyless entry, to reduce bulk in our pockets.  We also don't want to submerge it when swimming or when caught in the rain.  We are camping outside afterall with an outdoor fun-mobile, right?  Who would take away all but one key hole on an outdoor fun-mobile?

I don't carry that bulky key in every day life either because I drive another vehicle daily.  It's my wife's Jeep of which I drive only when we are together.  With that said, I can't open the door for my wife in everyday life.  I always have to open the driver door, then hit the unlock button for her.

Those goof ball bean counters in the auto industry really need to think smarter.  They save $10 in the cost of parts and labor but torture the people that bought the vehicle.  Shopping for the next 4x4 with key holes for every door, will be a very high priority.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Trudy on July 28, 2011, 08:22:14 pm
2010 Honda CRV (4 wheel drive). Did a LOT of research before we bought something that could be towed 4 down and decided on CRV. No complaints!


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: billy on July 28, 2011, 09:57:59 pm
Trudy, do you still run thru all the gears? 4 wheel drive, cool   hithere


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Trudy on July 29, 2011, 08:14:42 pm
Ya Billy, we sure do.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Syd and Margo on October 20, 2011, 07:38:49 am
09 Honda CRV 4 wheels down.  Great toad with kayaks on top and bikes on the back.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on October 20, 2011, 08:06:19 pm
soo. 4 new glow plugs, new fan switch for radiator, new fuse for fan inside, and new computer.... oh by the way a short in the wiring system.  Lots of money later still have this diesel money pit.. Have soo much into this vehicle now, have to run it through winter.....

DJM


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: NHWanderlust on November 03, 2011, 05:53:55 pm
Does anyone tow 4 down a Subaru Forester? I read varying reports about if this is even possible.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on November 06, 2011, 04:32:50 pm
I have used this site several times to determine what can be towed 4 down.  Customer Service is also very good and accommodating ( 1-800-228-2481  ).  They will tell what needs to be done and why if it can't be done.

Best to get the answer directly from the horse's mouth.

http://www.remcotowing.com/vehicles

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: pyrthkr on November 07, 2011, 06:31:38 pm
03 Honda CRV 4 down.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on December 17, 2011, 01:39:14 am
I'm with Dave and others - have owned Jeeps - loved 'em - but did not enjoy being nickeled and dimed to death on repairs and service.

Currently have an '07 Rav-4 AWD.  Great deal - sis was dating the sales manager!  NOT a 4-down tow.  How was I to know what I would need later?

Would personally choose either a CRV or a Fit stick when I "go for it".  Or any other stick shift econobox, for that matter.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on December 29, 2011, 10:35:45 pm
Update"

Jeep Liberty diesel dead and buried.  New car is a subaru forrester, nice improvement.  Not towable.

Have permission from dw to put tow hooks on her mini cooper convertible 6 speed manual......it is a lot lighter than the jeep.  Probably won't notice it behind the rv.

DJM


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on December 30, 2011, 05:55:36 am
mciai2000 -

So - your Forester is an auto?

My Rav-4 was only available as an auto.  And frankly, as I am solidly within the Chicago area, don't know I'd choose anything else.  One needs to smoke, drink and text as we roll along!  SERIOUSLY - am kidding about texting!

Yet still, I WANT TO SHIFT!

To paraphrase George Bailey in "It's a Wonderful Life", "Please God - I want to shift!"

LOL!


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on December 30, 2011, 05:58:41 am
PS - the "Mini"?

OMG - how much fun with that sucker?!

A few hours with that baby - could entirely forget the Subie purchase!

:-)



Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on December 30, 2011, 07:02:51 am
We used to tow a tiny little red 2-seater convertible, a 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder.  That was a lot of fun for sight-seeing.  It was small and light weight which made it a very easy tow vehicle.  Unfortunately we found ourselves doing things with that car that it was not designed for.  The last trip with it, we drove down in and out of dry rocky river beds to get to a trail head, and drove a very rough 40 miles sight-seeing dirt road, both which were naturally hard on the car.  Our adventures got us thinking a 4x4 would be a much smarter tow vehicle.  Since my wife's daily driver was in-need of replacement, she got to pick the easy-tow 4x4.  She loved the styling of the 1st generation Liberty, and the rest is history with that one.  I ended up selling the 2000 MR2 and bought a 2003 A/E Corvette convertible for my around-town fun car.

The 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyer
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7023/6599867249_7b1be1621e_z.jpg)

The 2006 Jeep Liberty 4x4
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4038/5161179007_8d1fdc6468_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on January 03, 2012, 09:48:30 pm
@downbytheriver-  Mini is soooo fun to drive and can haul dw, me and two kids with ease.  Great fuel economy too.  Drop the top and it does not get any better.

DJM


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on January 04, 2012, 07:31:02 pm
And Dave?

Thanks so much for your comments regarding your ownership experience of your Liberty CRD!

A somewhat local dealer had an amazingly pristine and low-mileage example on the lot for what seemed an amazingly realistic price.  An available toad that I've obsessed and mooned over for countless hours.  Until now.  Now I don't feel so bad.

Yet it would seem that your own personal experience on engine maintenance only further compounds we past and previous Jeep owners' general surliness!

Sigh!

If only there were a good, reliable, fiscally-economical full-down standard 4x4 diesel available us!



Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on January 04, 2012, 07:47:45 pm
mciai2000/Dave -

Will have to check out the Mini again at the next Chicago Auto Show -

My general recollection was that it was roomy enough in front - yet feedback from various publications and a neighbor was that at least in the early years, repairs/reliability were suspect.  Although willing to bet not as bad as a garden-variety Jeep, and much less, a CRD.

Ron - wish you still had "Mr. 2".  Would have been an eager tire-kicker, if not buyer!

Final comment?  In the end, we must all grow up, I guess.  Who hasn't fantasized over having a final-year Mercedes 560SL?  Low miles, pristine AND affordable?

Sigh!  While waiting for my RAV-4 being dealer serviced, found the 560 of my dreams out on the sales floor, and tried it on for size.

OMG - could anything be SMALLER or more archaic in the cockpit?  At least I now know, should I desire a "classic" touring convertible, I'd be better off with a late-2000's Thunderbird!

OTOH, haven't yet planted my ass in a TR6.




Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: GoPhoenix on January 05, 2012, 08:21:38 am
We tow a Chevy HHR and love it.  Tows great four-wheels-down and automatic.  With rear seats folded down, we can pile the back full of stuff that won’t fit in the PC (grill, etc.) and the five dark rear windows hide it all.  Blue Ox tow bar.  You sit upright like an SUV.  The wife says it's her favorite car ever.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on January 05, 2012, 11:32:15 am
With rear seats folded down, we can pile the back full of stuff that won’t fit in the PC (grill, etc.) and the five dark rear windows hide it all.
Just as you say, we too with darkened glass rear of the driver, quickly learned to take advantage of our tow vehicle in other ways.  Last vacation, we decided to bring our golf clubs with carts.  I also bolted up a 3500 pound hitch to secure a bike rack, so the bikes came along as shown.  That worked out extremely well.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7020/6641812687_8e01997fa2_z.jpg)


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: NHWanderlust on January 06, 2012, 04:35:55 pm
If only there were a good, reliable, fiscally-economical full-down standard 4x4 diesel available us!



The 2013 Jeep Grand Cherokee will be offered with a diesel. Not sure if any of the other models will get the diesel. That wont be a cheep vehicle though. This new Grand Cherokee has gotten very good reviews. Autoweek finished their 1 year long term road test and gave it really high marks. This version of the Grand Cherokee was developed when MB owned the brand.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Bob Mahon on January 06, 2012, 07:10:20 pm
As "Buy American" as I am, I'd sure like to see Hyundai bring their 5-speed manual Tucson Diesel  over here.
My Son had one for a few years and my driving impression was very favorable. Torque galore.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on January 09, 2012, 04:50:51 am
Had an HHR for a loaner for a week and loved it.

Not too many wagons left to choose from.

Chevy discontinued it, but plenty of them made, so resale market should be bountiful and reasonably priced.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on January 11, 2012, 12:18:54 am
For additional privacy/security, there was also an HHR panel.  The rear doors remain, but are popped open by interior switch.  Rear window only retained.  Deleted rear seat provides additional lockable storage where bottom seat cushions used to be.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on January 11, 2012, 02:53:32 pm
Here's link to a current HHR Panel for sale with quite a few photos:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/2009-CHEVROLET-HHR-PAMEL-VAN-CARGO-VAN-W-LADDER-RACK-PERFECT-CAR-FAX-/300646919041?pt=US_Cars_Trucks&hash=item45fff3eb81

As a toad/trucklet/rolling storage unit, including factory option roof rack for cargo bag/ladders/and/or kyaaks, could be an ideal choice for many........


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: pyrthkr on January 18, 2012, 03:08:05 pm
Kind of narrowed down our toad selection to a Honda Fit (light, possibly no brake assist, good mpg).  The base plate is easy to zero in on but the tow bar & harness (7 pin on the 2552) appear to have a variety of selections.  Any recommendations?


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on January 18, 2012, 07:37:09 pm
Mike;

We use a Blue Ox tow bar and it works great and is easy to use.  As far as the harness goes buy a 7 pin connector for the PC and a 4 or 6 pin connector for the car plus a little cable and make your own.  If you need a diagram let me know.

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on February 20, 2012, 01:03:06 pm
Kind of narrowed down our toad selection to a Honda Fit (light, possibly no brake assist, good mpg)
We towed a 2100 pound Toyota MR2 Spyder and considered it "Getting By" without brake assist with our 2007 E350 chassis.  Given you have the newer E450 chassis with bigger brakes and more powerful brake booster, and have a relatively light motor home for an E450 chassis, I anticipate you would feel better yet.  Just don't load up the Fit with heavy stuff...at least not until after your first road trip.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: classact on February 27, 2012, 12:14:11 am
Pontiac Vibe/ Toyota Matrix, 5-speed, 4 down.

Back seats fold down flat to create a perfectly flat surface, much light an SUV. 


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: pyrthkr on February 27, 2012, 12:01:01 pm
Picked up the Honda Fit from Cliff's Welding in Mesa, AZ last week & hooked up the Blue Ox bar, elec & safety cables to it.  We had the split hitch installed so we can try out the bike rack in the top portion.  The 2552 is a bit more sluggish - but that is to be expected I guess.  All things considered, we're still doing fine & are comfortable with the ride.  Thank you all.....
 ;)


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: GoPhoenix on February 27, 2012, 12:37:46 pm
We tow a Chevy HHR, 4 down, automatic, no body mods (but do remove a fuse).  Tows great, no mileage registers, lots of room in the back for everything.  Best, it’s from an American car company – none of the profit on the car left the American economy and went to a foreign country. (nod)


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: begentle on February 27, 2012, 06:31:51 pm
Our "toad" is a 2009 Ford Escape Hybrid (about 3700 lb), which can be towed four down, pop her in neutral, set the key so accessory is not on, and off we go!  Roadmaster Falcon All Terrain tow bar, and a US Gear Unified brake system. 

Have used this set up with two other rigs as well, and for some reason, in the short 400 or so miles that we've towed the Escape behind the PC, we do "notice" the car.  Previous experience with other rigs, it just rolls along nicely, not talking back.  But with the PC we experience a little sway and some up and down motion.  Hard to describe. On a wavy road (some up and downs) there is up and down re-action from the car.  In addition to swaying in some circumstances.  Not severe, but noticeable.  Our 2010 - 2551 has new Bilstein shocks, and Roadmaster sway bars front and rear.  Last thing to double check (can't do it here in our lumpy driveway) is whether we're "level" when on the hitch.  It appeared to be by eyeballing, but haven't done a precise measurement. 

Hate to think we'd have to also get a rear track bar.



Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 27, 2012, 06:40:39 pm
On “imports” vs “domestics”; on “profits” vs “jobs”:

As for profits, EVERY single auto manufacturer is a multi-national corporation.  And so it’s benefiting shareholders that span the globe.  In these times particularly, one need pay MORE attention to jobs generated, not profits generated.  “Auto” generates slim profits, but does produce many well-paying jobs at the point of assembly.

We are all familiar with the “Monroney Sticker” – the window sticker on every new vehicle we purchase.  This sticker shows, among other things, “domestic content”.  This is the US/Canadian value of the PARTS content of a given vehicle, but does little to illuminate the additional value inherent in where it’s assembled.  The sticker very accurately accounts for jobs, profit and input for RAW parts content, but does not accurately account for assembly input.  Assembly input is MAJOR – assembly provides HUGE benefits as regards well-paying assembly jobs, as well as additional jobs in the building domestic factories and the domestic payroll that services said factories and assembly lines.  All such jobs as provide high payrolls, as well as copious income tax revenue.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 27, 2012, 06:41:15 pm
One example – the full-size Toyota Tundra pickup.  By Monroney Sticker “domestic content” values alone, it scores the highest as far as domestic content.  Further, they are assembled entirely in Texas.  So not only are these Toyota pickups the highest in “domestic content”, but they are also built in Texas as well.  Say what you will regarding “domestic” benefits as regards assembly – whether here or in Canada.  I’m more worried for the US than Canada.  Meanwhile, many “American” vehicles are often assembled in Mexico.  Take the Monroney Sticker’s “domestic content” values into account certainly – but do ALSO take into account the point of assembly as well.

It’s very complicated, but suffice to say, the most “American” vehicles are not necessarily Ford, GM OR Chrysler any longer.  Who cares where the “profits” go?  Care more where the jobs go.  Payrolls GROSSLY exceed profits.  Payroll is ANY organization’s greatest expense by far.

PS – if you haven’t noticed – Chrysler/Jeep is now really owned by Fiat.  Prior to that, Renault owned it at one time.  DO look at domestic content.  BUT ALSO know where your vehicle was assembled as well.  If you’ve saved your window stickers, take a look – you might be surprised.  As but one example, your Toyota could very well be “more American” than your Ford, Chevy or Mopar vehicle.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 27, 2012, 06:54:25 pm
I've advanced the Chevy HHR here as being a great "toad".  Not the least of which because I've had some experience with it.

Yet, nonetheless, if one looks to Wikipedia for guidance, the HHR's point of assembly has been Ramos Arizpe, Mexico.  And having been employed in producing parts for GM and the Ramos Arizpe factory, I'm WAS good.  But NOW I could really use an assembly job, so I'm screwed.

If only GM had built a factory for it in the US, and if only GM employed US citizens in building, manning and servicing that factory!  Oh well.......


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 27, 2012, 07:34:56 pm


From the Cars.com “American-Made Index”, the HHR scores a “domestic parts rating index" of 50%.  Plus, it’s assembled in Mexico.


The “top ten” American cars?

1) Toyota Camry

2) Ford F-150

3) Chevy Malibu

4) Honda Odyssey

5) Chevy Silverado 1500

6) Toyota Sienna

7) Toyota Tundra

8) GMC Sierra 1500

9) Ford Taurus

10) Toyota Venza


That’s for specific models.  As for pickups, once you include and average ALL pickup models, the “F-250 & F-350”, the “2500 & 3500”, the Tundra does even better.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 27, 2012, 07:35:28 pm
Score:

Toyota = 4
GM = 3
Ford = 2
Honda = 1

Looks like Toyota is doing the most in employing and benefiting the average American.these days.

I need a job – not profits.  Although through my mutual funds, I’m getting profits as well.  The only problem is that the longer I’m unemployed, the more I’m consuming that seed corn.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 27, 2012, 08:05:18 pm
The domestic payroll that supports domestic assembly, domestic construction, and domestic support services FAR exceeds any profit benefits.  By many multiples.

And even then, profit benefits are multinational now.

Bragging rights?  GM, Ford & Chrysler have always been able to purchase and dis-assemble and reverse-engineer Camry's.  So why no "domestic" models that eats Toyota's "lunch" yet?

(crickets)



Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 27, 2012, 08:58:38 pm
Darnit!!!  I hate to get all political an’ all, but it does factor in……

We can’t entirely ignore the profit motive.  The profit motive is the primary influence on any manufacturers’ decisions regarding domestic content, factory investment and point of assembly.

Once we cruise past this April, the United States will have the highest corporate tax rate in the entire World.

“Profits” “booked” in either Japan or Canada will be taxed significantly less than in the US.

While this will have little effect on the Japanese, especially due the shipping costs that can still be avoided; what of Canada & Mexico?  What of “American” manufacturing profits?

“Profits” “booked” in Canada will be, and have been; taxed significantly less.  Profits made in Mexico will be taxed at a FAR, FAR less ratio than in the US.

I’ll have better luck finding an “auto” or manufacturing job in Mexico.  Or Canada.  But to easily emigrate to Canada, I need have more than $500,000 in net assets.  Which thanks to the real estate and stock market bubbles, I no longer have.

Hint:  As far as manufacturing goes, “Head South, young man; head South!”

Yeah – the US – what a great place to live!


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: GoPhoenix on February 28, 2012, 07:19:39 am
Wow! Talk about using a cannon to shot a flea!  :-D   I’ve heard all those arguments before, especially from my loquacious bother-in-law.   Bottom line: buying from an American car company creates jobs and profits for America and Americans.  We’ll never own a car from a foreign car company.  Not when there are plenty of cars made by American car companies rated as good as or better than those of foreign car companies.  We’ve had several Class A motorhomes and other RVs and several tow cars.  The HHR is certainly the best we’ve ever had as a tow car.  And driving it is great – sits up straight like the PC. 


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: TomHanlon on February 28, 2012, 08:01:59 am
DownBy TheRiver,

A couple of questions for you,
1. It seems that when you post on here, you post several replies in a row instead of just one like the rest of us do. Why is that?
2. You joined this forum way back in December 2009 and claim that you "hope to buy a PC soon". Do you just get on here to preach and complain or are you really going to buy a PC? We all welcome constructive conversations but you seem to like to complain a lot.
I am just wondering what is going on here.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Bob Mahon on February 28, 2012, 08:18:39 am
You beat me to the punch but thanks, Tom.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on February 28, 2012, 09:00:47 pm
Wow!!!!

DownbyRiver"  I am sorry for your loss of a good paying job right now.  I am confident you will find one soon, as you seem to be an extremely capable individual.

As far your your ideas about profit well............. I AM an AMERICAN  business owner with employees.  Yes, I hate taxes and the some of the stupid business laws.  But I have to tell you, profit unfortunately for you is every business owners motive.  If I cannot make a profit at what I do, then I am not going to do it.  Otherwise, I call that welfare and socialism.  If I want a loan to expand my business, do you know what the first question the banker asks me?  Are you making money?  If the answer is no, well then, no loan, no expansion, no payroll increase, no growth. Does all this stink?  Hell yea!! But the other choice is called socialism and that my friend I am not fond of.   So here I sit trying to make a profit this year so that I can continue to make employee payroll this Friday as we have continuously done since 1930!  Do I employee lots of people? Hell no, but the ones I do, depend on me and our profits. Do  I lay awake at night, wondering how our company can make it another week? Yup! Do I worry about the people who work for me? Yup.  Do I wonder sometimes why I continue to operate our business despite our stupid business laws? Yup.  But do I continue to do this day in and day out because there is no other country in this world that has this great form of democracy?  Damn right I do!

Keep your chin up and head held high because your are an AMERICAN and I guarantee your outlook and future will get better because you live in AMERICA!

Semper Fidelis

DJM


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 29, 2012, 11:29:34 pm
I apologize – I “went rouge” (off-topic) perhaps.

I only commented, because it (American jobs and profits) seemed to matter as a posted opinion.  It matters to me too - greatly.  And if it does matter to anyone else, all I’m saying is, it’s not that simple.

>>>>  “I’ve heard all those arguments before, especially from my loquacious bother-in-law. Bottom line: buying from an American car company creates jobs and profits for America and Americans.”

We’ve all heard those arguments.  But analyze the fruit of what’s reality as well. Buying from “foreign” companies ALSO creates jobs and profits for American investors and Americans workers.  Oftentimes in far greater abundance these days.  Foreign nameplates continue to build new US plants and hire many thousands of workers, while “Detroit” and Silicon Valley” continue to idle or close plants and call centers, and lay off workers.  Just food for thought.  As but one example, Honda’s factories in the United States have recently been a net exporter of vehicles to other countries.  Many such examples exist in all other product lines.

It’s sad that the US, the most creative and technologically capable country cannot figure out how to, or decide to, compete with those who simply improve upon our own designs and patents.  It’s the management and shareholders of “American” companies that create this problem.  Government too.  It’s sad, but it’s reality.

The US also has unrivaled worker productivity and work ethic – so it’s not just wages and benefits alone.  Even Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, Mazda, Mitsubishi, Kia, Volkswagen, BMW and Mercedes thrive as manufacturers here in the US, among but a few.  The US needs once again to become a net exporter and creditor – and manufacturing is the key component.  Not necessarily Ford or GM manufacturing – but DOMESTIC manufacturing and export of all kinds - predicated primarily on a US workforce that provides for US jobs, wages and contracts.  If Ford, GM, Apple or Microsoft can’t “get it together” here in the US?  Oh well.  I’d rather stand with American middle-class wage earners than with corporate interests.




Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 29, 2012, 11:30:19 pm
In spite of it all, I love the HHR.  It could have been built here, but it wasn’t.  You either have a better idea, product, profitability or productivity, or you don’t.  “Foreign” manufacturers do no worse or better here in benefiting all Americans than “Domestics”, whether in sales, manufacturing or employment.  It’s all a “wash” now.  Why be concerned any longer over nameplates?   Profits are distributed internationally, while domestic plant wages and costs are not.  I’m willing to bet that more mortgages are paid, more gas is put into tanks, more taxes are paid, more pensions are paid, and more food is lain upon families’ tables by domestic wages and costs than profits do.  Wages paid me by ANY employer, or actual capital investment in the US by ANY manufacturer; strike me as being more “American” in nature than any dependency on “American” bailouts, unemployment benefits or welfare.  America is more an idea – an ideal, than a label.  Allowing us to work smart – to work hard – AND to EARN our wages fairly is more “American” than whom it is we think we work for.  I want money – I need money - but I want to WORK for it.  If Ford or GM has no work available for me?  Oh well, they’re no more “American” than any one else these days.

Sorry – I’m passionate.  I love America.  And I believe that unless we embrace radical change on many fronts, we’ll fail as a country and as an idea.  Equating the support of “buying” Ford or GM or Washington as being patriotic no longer necessarily profits either individual Americans, nor the American “idea”.



Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on February 29, 2012, 11:30:50 pm
PLEASE - do not take my comments as a critique of any individual – it is absolutely not meant in that spirit.  It’s only a critique of what I see as outmoded thoughts as juxtaposed against current realities.  The old ideas no longer pertain.  “Buy(ing) American”  is a 30+ year old sentiment that is no longer operative or of value.  Such sentiment, as originally advanced, as being in support of American employment.  A more modern, relevant slogan should be “Employ Americans”.  These days, “buying “American” ” ain’t necessarily “employing Americans” any longer, nor necessarily “profiting” Americans, either.



Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on March 01, 2012, 01:43:48 am
And, “Wow” to you DJ, as well as others!

Just so you know, I’m speaking as a life-long registered Republican, AND as a past business owner, AND as an inveterate family-owned business employee, such as with your own employees.  As an employee, I have never chosen ANY other type of employer.  With a family-owned business, you know who’s in charge of what, and decisions are made swiftly and accurately; and all credit due your efforts and success is swiftly appreciated and credited.  You always know where you stand.  Reality.  There is no such nobility, nor such reality as a “small” business.  These are the businesses that are the backbone of America, and those employers who provide the most jobs, the most OPPORTUNITY to us all.

I understand “profit” all too well.  “Profit” is what creates “real” jobs – “real” wealth – “real”ity.  I KNOW that.  In my last job?  While aware we “grossed” $40M, I was also aware that almost all of that was eaten up by maintenance, shipping, tooling, electricity, taxes of all kinds, insurance of all kinds, telephony, etc.  And most of all, PAYROLL, blah, blah, blah.  Had we no profit, we would have nothing.  However, most saw the $40M figure, but could not understand what “NET” means.  And that’s even BEFORE taxes!  LOL!  Many bridled against the owner’s apparent “wealth”, yet never realized that he was due that wealth for taking a personal financial risk, each and every day.  And further, regardless of his personal “extravagances”, few, if any, would understand that in robbing the owner of any and all income, profits or benefits paid on his behalf – that this sum would only finance something on the order of a 20-cent raise for us all.  AND would rob us all of the very motivation by which he might continue, and his own obvious talent in securing contracts.  I get it.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on March 01, 2012, 01:44:51 am
My then-current boss was NOT given the company by his father.  He BOUGHT it from his father.  At FULL value.  Ironically, I came to find out that my paternal grandmother, as a European WW1 widow and indentured servant immigrant (white slave – let’s not mince words) , was his father’s nanny almost a century ago now.   And so provided me, not a sense of “entitlement”, but a sense of pride for a business not my own, and for a pride of capitalism and America.  Not only had this business’ profits provided for the establishment of a foothold for my family in America almost a century ago, but amazingly, had also provided for my family’s security today.  Admittedly – a quite unusual personal circumstance, but yet - Thank God for my employer!  This company and others not only provided for my needs currently, but had also provided the very means by which my own family was able to come to America in the first place!

While I personally liked his father, I did NOT like him - yet I absolutely RESPECTED him and his family.  And with the exception of his idiot son and daughter, every other family member worked well, and worked HARD - just as we all did, and were all proud for being allowed the privilege of being able to be productive, AND earn a good and honorable living as well.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on March 01, 2012, 01:45:30 am
DJM Said:

>>>>  “Keep your chin up and head held high because your are an AMERICAN and I guarantee your outlook and future will get better because you live in AMERICA!”

Hoo-Hoo!  Agree whole-heartedly!  And the same for PC!  My own family history IS the “American Experience”!  Currently though, I just hope reality is realized sooner, rather than later!  My ancestors relied more on “later” rather than “sooner”, and it paid off in spades.  And has thus far paid off for me as well in these “modern” times.  While I cannot deny that patience is a virtue, I cannot also discount that apathy, these days; is all-too-readily embraced as either “patience” or “virtue”.  Get real, people!

The clock’s a-tickin’!


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: aimee on March 01, 2012, 08:46:59 am
Oh, I think we've veered far enough off this topic and off PC's in general. Current or potential buyers are not likely to find much here of usefulness. Can we bring it back on topic, please?

I don't mind veering off and stopping to smell the roses and see the largest ball of twine, but only when it stays pleasant. I hope thus makes sense and isn't jumbled by these confounded pain meds the doctors have me on. ;)

If you guys could see all the thankful emails I get from people who are do touched by the friendliness and welcoming nature of this forum you would understand where I'm coming from. It's humbling to see how many people make choices based on the information we provide here and the friendliness in which we do it.

There's a lot wrong with that grammatically. I am hoping you still see my point. It's the best I can do hopped uP on goofballs and typing from my phone.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on March 01, 2012, 04:08:21 pm
Picked up the Honda Fit from Cliff's Welding in Mesa, AZ last week & hooked up the Blue Ox bar, elec & safety cables to it.  We had the split hitch installed so we can try out the bike rack in the top portion.  The 2552 is a bit more sluggish - but that is to be expected I guess.  All things considered, we're still doing fine & are comfortable with the ride.
pyrthkr

1) Did you setup your Honda Fit with a secondary braking system, if so, what type?  If not, what is your comfort factor with the increased braking distance?  Or do you even notice an increase?
2) Is your tow bar horizontal, or at an angle between the motor home and the Fit, especially with the dual hitch adaptor?


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: pyrthkr on March 01, 2012, 04:47:50 pm
No Ron, I have not initially set up a secondary braking system but I definitely know there is something else attached to the RV. Have only driven it back from the shop to home (~15mi) & consciously maintained a greater distance for stopping although it did not appear to need it.  That being said, I keep a pretty safe stopping distance anyway so I may already be overly cautious (is there such a thing?)

Tow bar appears to be extremely close to horizontal; definitely well within the 3" limit expressed in the manufacturer brochure (I think they actually say 4" but the shop went even lower).  I think the dual hitch actually helped that as the Fit is fairly low to the ground in front.  Remains to be seen how everything works in unison when I try the tow bar & bike rack together later this month when I travel to Sonoita/Bisbee.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: GoPhoenix on March 01, 2012, 05:00:13 pm
My two cents worth on a brake system: We have an older Brake Buddy without proportional braking. (Fleetwood paid half the cost to settle a federal complaint against them for misstating towing capability on our Class A.)  I can tell when it’s working because I can feel it, plus the indicator on the dash.  But with very careful driving, it rarely comes on. The point being that if I had to replace it, I personally wouldn’t pay extra for proportional braking with the lighter weight toad we have.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on March 01, 2012, 05:23:04 pm
No Ron, I have not initially set up a secondary braking system but I definitely know there is something else attached to the RV. Have only driven it back from the shop to home (~15mi) & consciously maintained a greater distance for stopping although it did not appear to need it.  That being said, I keep a pretty safe stopping distance anyway so I may already be overly cautious (is there such a thing?)

Tow bar appears to be extremely close to horizontal; definitely well within the 3" limit expressed in the manufacturer brochure (I think they actually say 4" but the shop went even lower).  I think the dual hitch actually helped that as the Fit is fairly low to the ground in front.  Remains to be seen how everything works in unison when I try the tow bar & bike rack together later this month when I travel to Sonoita/Bisbee.
It sounds like you are better set up than we were without secondary braking for our little MR2 Spyder, given your light 2552 and newer E450 with the improved brakes introduced in 2008.  I would like to say you are all done, but you will know better after conditions test your setup.  Increased braking distance is certain.  Just be extra careful the first time you decend a 7% grade for the next 10 miles on a snaking byway with cliffs abound.  We decended out the north east road from Yosemite with the 2100 pound MR2 in-back pushing hard, my wife almost wetting her pants.....and me too.  We would have gone over the edge if not for the HD sway bars, rear trac bar, Koni Shocks, Safe-T-Plus, etc.  Being in low gear helped until we'd get close to red lining the tachometer which then forced us to brake hard and often.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on March 02, 2012, 07:27:46 pm
Aimee Said:

>>>>  “Oh, I think we've veered far enough off this topic and off PC's in general. Current or potential buyers are not likely to find much here of usefulness. Can we bring it back on topic, please?

I cannot disagree in any way with your chastisement.  Thanks, Aimee!  (Aimee smacks DownBy_TheRiver upside the “haid”)

I and others posting here are all about Phoenix Cruiser.  I’ve more than adequately disclosed why I still remain a die-hard PC enthusiast, but am not as of yet an owner.  While I could theoretically buy any Cruiser thrice at this late date, I must await the resolution of many personal issues prior to purchase, whether due unresolved employment, familial and/or financial issues in the current economy.  I admire those posters who’ve “arrived”.  My own personal circumstances are awkward, as I’ve been currently “denied” my own previously-planned and invested-in “arrival” by recent circumstance, as I should have otherwise been allowed.  I’m young’n, generally speaking.

I would hope that as a “wannabe”, and as Aimee herself mentions: (the concerns of) “current and POTENTIAL owners”, that my observations and critiques as a potential owner are valued regardless of whether or not I agree on tangential issues, whether raised by current owners or potential owners.   As a potential owner, I hope to benefit from the best possible coach PC can produce (as I believe they’re the best coach already available), and of which I can possibly purchase in the near future.  In my personal circumstance as a potential owner, PC’s coaches mean more to me as a likely future full-timer, than as do current part-timers; nor as any other available coach - as far as I can research.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on March 02, 2012, 10:02:49 pm
If we are to focus solely on PC issues, and of which I have up until now - I have not only attested to my own approval of anyone’s choice of “toad”, but have provided additional info as well.  And yet, more than 47 days later, somehow, a flag need be waved?

Honest to God, I’m done now on this topic.  I would say only, look ALL results.  Don’t allow anyone to make you feel “guilty”.  Pay attention to the total financial result and NOT labels.  Whether we be current or POTENTIAL PC owners.  Whether we be current toad owners or POTENTIAL toad owners.  Whether or not a “toad” product offered makes sense for PC owners’ needs or not, regardless of “manufacture” or “nameplate”.

The “truth is out there”.  So is the data.  If the “domestics” have decided to ignore our needs, why should you care if they do or don’t?  They don’t care about you – so why should you care about them?  And if so, why should you care so much about the political considerations of your own choices, if your own choices end up ACTUALLY profiting “others”?  Your apparent confusion only confuses us all.

And how does ANY of this have ANYTHING to do with Phoenix Cruiser in the first place?  The HHR is built and assembled in Mexico.  Any and all PC’s are manufactured, built and assembled in Indiana.  And that’s all that matters to me.

If ANYTHING else matters, you’d better actually know why it either does or does not matter, beyond a mere Nameplate – if that’s your entire argument in the first place.  I rest my case.  Done.

Let’s all wave the flag……


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bigbadjc on March 03, 2012, 12:39:31 pm
I've been chuckling about the wild deviation from the norm that this thread has taken, but the quote from the X Files "The truth is out there" finally got me to throw in this note.  There is no TRUTH about this whole line of discussion.  What each person sees as the right fit for their wants and needs is the truth for them.  These are called tastes or opinions.  You cannot choose a Toad with a spreadsheet.  Appearance, interior layout and finish, and past experience for many of us far outway the exact MPG to expect, the 0-60 time, or the final purchase cost.  If we all looked at cost of ownership as the paramount thing, it would often be hard to justify a motorhome and toad over buying a nice car and staying in decent motels. Also, it's also hard to say where a vehicle is produced anymore.  You can say where the final assembly is made, but the parts are likely to come from a dozen different countries.  It wasn't just Toyota that was affected when Japan had their earthquake and subsequent nuclear accident.  Assembly plants all over the world slowed down.  Is a Honda assembled in the USA made with parts from Japan an American car or a Japanese car?  Are clothes die cut from American fabrics in the USA but shipped to Bangladesh to be sewn into clothing American clothes?  Decide what's right for you, seek advice from other's experiences if you desire, and buy what you like and can afford.  But don't believe anyone has the single truth about much of anything.  That's how wars start and how people buy things they later regret.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on March 03, 2012, 01:43:11 pm
Also, it's also hard to say where a vehicle is produced anymore.  You can say where the final assembly is made, but the parts are likely to come from a dozen different countries.
In 2007, I recall seeing a list of every 2007 vehicle sold in the USA.  One column had the percentage of parts and assembly in the USA.  The 2007 E-Series was at the very top of the list at #1 with a 97% parts and assembly made in the USA.  I recently tried to find that list on-line again but was not successful.

If anyone else finds it, please post the link to it.  I don't want anyone taking my word for it as I have been wrong before on other matters.  Nothing like confirmation.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bigbadjc on March 03, 2012, 02:28:19 pm
I was looking for the answer to your question about the source of the E series cutaway vans and according to Wickipedia, which is not really an official source, after I believe it was 2007 all Ford E series vans were assembled in Ohio.  In the past some came from Ontario, Canada, but apparently no more.  Ford E type vans also account for about 70% of all the vans made in America.

Jerry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: DownBy TheRiver on March 20, 2012, 09:18:40 am
Where I used to work?

We were the sole provider for 2 separate E-chassis parts, or so were we told.

All were shipped to Lorain, OH.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: JimWert on April 06, 2012, 09:59:30 am
2006 Jeep Liberty


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on April 06, 2012, 01:58:08 pm
2006 Jeep Liberty
2006 Jeep Liberty For Us Too.
(http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4038/5161179007_8d1fdc6468.jpg)


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Bob Mahon on April 06, 2012, 04:11:00 pm
Just now setting up the Cougar for our western trip.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: GregC on November 08, 2012, 03:17:17 pm
We're getting ready for our first extended trip in the 2551 and wondering if anyone has experience towing a Jeep Grand Cherokee.  I've seen Ron's Jeep Liberty set-up (in photos) and an HHR, but didnt' run across any Grand Cherokees.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: TomHanlon on November 08, 2012, 04:35:29 pm
5k lbs weight limit on the PC hitch. GC over that. :'(


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on November 08, 2012, 07:05:30 pm
Greg

You might be able to change out the existing 5K hitch for a 10K hitch.

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: GregC on November 08, 2012, 08:14:52 pm
Do I need to actually weigh the Grand Cherokee, or can I go by the curb weight?  The 2002 GC I'm looking at has a curb weight of 3970 lbs.  According to Edmunds.com the Liberty is within 100 or so lbs. of the curb weight of the Grand Cherokee.  What do you suggest?


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on November 09, 2012, 12:46:54 pm
Greg

Curb weight is the total weight of a vehicle with standard equipment, all necessary operating consumables (i.e., motor oil and coolant), a full tank of fuel, while not loaded with either passengers or cargo.

Starting at 3,970 you need to add the weight of any options that were installed at the factory (i.e. skid plates and 4WD) or anything added by a previous owner, plus the weight of the towbar, plus the weight of any cargo you add to the GC.  Easiest way to determine the weight of the CG is to go to a scale and get it weighed.  This can usually be done for about $10.

I looked at the hitch on our 2012 2551 and the hitch is bolted to the frame.  It looks simple enough to remove and have a higher rated hitch installed.

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: GregC on November 09, 2012, 01:02:44 pm
Thanks so much for the advice.  Since I'm looking to purchase a vehicle to tow, I probably need to look for something lighter to start with so I don't push the limit of the 2551 itself.   Appreciate all the info!  The search continues.....


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on November 09, 2012, 02:47:31 pm
Greg

The limit is with the hitch not the 2551.  The PC would be able to pull a 6,000 pound toad with a good health safety margin.

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: lghjr on November 09, 2012, 03:57:23 pm
Greg

Curb weight is the total weight of a vehicle with standard equipment, all necessary operating consumables (i.e., motor oil and coolant), a full tank of fuel, while not loaded with either passengers or cargo.

Starting at 3,970 you need to add the weight of any options that were installed at the factory (i.e. skid plates and 4WD) or anything added by a previous owner, plus the weight of the towbar, plus the weight of any cargo you add to the GC.  Easiest way to determine the weight of the CG is to go to a scale and get it weighed.  This can usually be done for about $10.

I looked at the hitch on our 2012 2551 and the hitch is bolted to the frame.  It looks simple enough to remove and have a higher rated hitch installed.

Barry


I would definitely be talking with PC before I did that: reasoning is that most of the frames have been sectioned and plugged.  On the 2007 I had, parts welded in were not full length welds, so by default the new parts were not as strong as the original frame, from which all those numbers derive.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bobander on November 09, 2012, 06:42:31 pm
5k lbs weight limit on the PC hitch. GC over that. :'(

The label on the hitch on my 2010 2551 has two ratings;

For weight distributing type hitch: 6,000 lb max trailer wt and 750 lb max tongue weight

For weight carrying ball mount type hitch, 5,000 lb max trailer and 500 lb max tongue

Not sure why the hitch type allows for different trailer weights, but maybe towing a vehicle with essentially no tongue weight would be ok up to the 6,000 lbs??



I would definitely be talking with PC before I did that: reasoning is that most of the frames have been sectioned and plugged.  On the 2007 I had, parts welded in were not full length welds, so by default the new parts were not as strong as the original frame, from which all those numbers derive.

Regarding the frame extension reinforcement not being full length welds:

https://www.fleet.ford.com/truckbbas/non-html/Q18.pdf

This Ford document describes the recommended procedure to lengthen the frame and the preferred method is skip welding and specifically leaves some areas of the reinforcement piece unwelded to allow flexing and to eliminate stress risers that could lead to cracking.  The document describes in detail the disassembly, lengthening, and reassembly procedures, very interesting if you like that sort of thing.

Bob A



Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: lghjr on November 09, 2012, 07:34:54 pm
I have had two E450 cut-a-way chassis motorhomes with lengthened frames, neither of which used the preferred or minimum acceptable method, and neither used the interrupted weld scheme outlined by Ford.  Material recommendations as to type (not metalurgical) were not followed. Also neither used the departure angle scheme outlined in the .pdf or provided the clearance recommended.

I'm kinda sorry I spent so much time under both now.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bobander on November 10, 2012, 03:54:44 pm
I have had only one E450 chassis motorhome, my current 2010 2551, the frame extension looks exactly like the preferred method.  Can't tell what the metal type is, have to assume that the recommended material was used.

Bob A


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: BandD on November 12, 2012, 12:37:38 pm
We tow an '09 Honda Fit, four down.  Roadmaster Falcon All-Terrain towbar.  Brake Buddy
braking system for the Honda.  All from Craigslist including the Honda.

Also, we have two of those 4-conductor electrical sockets and on plug extra.  The ones
that connect the PC's lights to the toad's.  Holler if you could use them.  No cable, just the
sockets and plug.

Bill & Diane


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Denny & Barb on November 05, 2014, 07:13:07 pm
We're looking to toad a outlander 4x4 in a 5x8 trailer this year. Any discussion on this type of toad?


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on November 05, 2014, 07:36:23 pm
Denny and Barb

PC hitch is rated at 5,000 pounds and the Outlander comes in at 4,800 - 5,000 plus pounds.  When you add a trailer you would be way over the limit of the standard PC hitch.

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bobojay on November 05, 2014, 08:10:45 pm
2010 Honda CRV (4 wheel drive). Did a LOT of research before we bought something that could be towed 4 down and decided on CRV. No complaints!

The CRV's, any of them are not 4 wheel drive. They are all wheel drive, and it's not the same thing.

Saying that, we know a couple of folks that tow Chevy Sonics 4 down. They love the car and the tow....


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Denny & Barb on November 06, 2014, 08:53:12 am
Barry...  My Outlander is an ATV at 780 lbs.  Must be something else out there with the same name?


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: bobojay on November 06, 2014, 11:26:28 am
Barry...  My Outlander is an ATV at 780 lbs.  Must be something else out there with the same name?

Mitsubishi Outlander


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on November 06, 2014, 11:34:27 am
Denny

My error, I was thinking the Mitsubishi Outlander SUV not an Outlander ATV.

Have fun and ride safe.


Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Bob Mahon on November 06, 2014, 11:44:16 am
2013 Ford Focus 5-speed connected by Blue Ox.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Jim and Beth on November 06, 2014, 12:24:38 pm
We currently tow a 6' x 10' enclosed trailer and a Harley Davidson Triglide. Total weight is 2415 lbs. Have not had any major issues since I can back the trailer and manage to get myself out of any tight spots without unhooking; which would be required if towing a car 4 down. The combined length of our 2910 and the trailer (17' overall length) does limit our options such as requiring pull-thrus at campgrounds, fuel stops, etc.

Recently I have been looking at cars that can be towed 4 down. Motorhome magazine publishes an annual "Dingy Towing Guide" which lists all the vehicles that can be flat towed. This guide is available on Motorhome's website. One thing I have found out about the 2015 models is that many of them now have variable automatic transmissions (VAT) and cannot be flat towed. This is true of the new Honda Fit and CRV which were towable before. Since I plan to use the vehicle as a toad and not my primary vehicle I am looking at small and lightweight (Smartcar, Fiat, or ???).


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Bob Mahon on November 06, 2014, 12:36:32 pm
I suggest when looking for a 4-down towable you look at the vehicle forums to get the real scoop. For instance; Ford lists the automatic Focus as being 4-down capable but there have been more complaints than I'd be comfortable with. The newer Escape Owner's Manual initially indicated it was 4-down capable but there were so many transmission failures under warranty that Ford changed the manual to indicate it was not towable.
Do your homework.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Barry-Sue on November 06, 2014, 12:57:54 pm
Remco website is  good source of information. They are very friendly and helpful and they will tell you what needs to be done to your car to make it towable.

http://www.remcotowing.com/

Barry


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: trudylou on September 25, 2015, 11:52:15 am
Towing a new 2014 Ford fiesta using a roadmaster falcon hitch. We've been towing this car for about 15 months 4 wheels down and no issue and a great towing vehicle.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: mciai2000 on January 02, 2016, 08:27:08 pm
As an update to my original post.  I now flat a tow a 2010 min cooper convertible with a manual tranny.  Don't even know it it back there.

DJM


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: jfcaramagno on January 04, 2016, 08:35:11 pm
A MINI Cooper is a proper towed.  (exactly)


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: ron.dittmer on January 04, 2016, 09:28:45 pm
Years ago we towed a little 2100 pound Toyota MR2 Spyder with manual trans.  When cruising, it was invisible.  When accelerating, it was well noticed.  Because we did not have secondary braking for that light car, when braking, the car pushed the motor home extremely hard.

We been towing a Jeep Liberty now for a while since the MR2.  It is twice the weight but is surprisingly little different when accelerating and cruising.  But with secondary braking installed on the Liberty, it actually helps slow down the motor home.

Surprising to me, in my experience the weight of the tow vehicle makes so little difference when cruising and accelerating.  But it is so well noticed compared to not towing anything at all.


Title: Re: Toads or tow vehicles? What brand do you use?
Post by: Joseph on March 06, 2016, 12:29:32 am
1800 pound smart car.   When we bought it I thought I would never use it for anything other than as a toad.  However we instantly fell in love with it for anything around town and use it more than our full sized car.   Inexpensive to buy, extremely high safety rating, we tow it four down using blue ox.  Have had no issue as far as braking, and tows like a dream.