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106  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Weights and Measures on: December 21, 2009, 04:27:24 pm
Hey NC Sailors

Thanks so much for your input on weights.  At the time (and perhaps still), I only had a mixed set of apples to oranges comparisons to make and perhaps this is still so.

However, based upon the 2010 PC2400 E350 weighed info provided by JWHYT10, when juxtaposed against my previously uninformed assumptions for a 2006 PC2400 E350, your statement on weights for your new PC2350S, as provided by Kermit, should prove to be fairly accurate - I would think.

First, consider that Ron Dittmers PC2350 E350 (with a fairly identical house) weighs 9,200# wet without ANY slides.  If I directly apply JWHYT10s actual weights to my prior assumptions on Fords E350 chassis weight, I end up with 5,100# +/- for the V10 Ford E350 chassis.  Meanwhile, if comparing against your Sprinter chassis weight of 4,400 +/-, I arrive at a difference of roughly 700# in total unit weight, which just so happens to be my estimate on a large slides additional weight.  Tah Dah!

All thats left then, is an approximately 100#+ discrepancy, which is fueled by the fact that your own delivery experience informs us that you probably had only 5 gallons of fuel upon delivery, the likely situation presented us with an overall factory weight as provided Kermit.  Throw into the mix the variability between your Sprinter units greater fresh water capacity vs. lesser fuel capacity vs. whatever differential in weight results in substituting Rons built-in-place dinette vs. your electrically-powered bed sofa, vs. additional or lesser weight produced by Rons chassis mods, and presto your stated weight of 9,300# of loaded and/or provided unit weight karma and an available 1,750#+/- payload on the Sprinter.  Oohhmmm!

Obviously, this analysis is not any sort of a substitute for actually-weighted unit data, but is nonetheless food for thought.  Regardless of the foregoing, I would endeavor to weigh my own unit (if purchased) in some known state of trim.  My own armchair observations are that knowing overall weight, as well as front-to-rear as well as side-to-side actual weight data at each corner would inform me as to my available capacities within my GVWR, but also as to how I would best load my unit overall while remaining within the engineered ratings for my chassis.

However, being the son of an Engineer (sigh! a heavy burden), as well as having been an Architectural/Engineering student myself (unmatriculated), I know that in this country, such figures are often advanced with a more realistic 5-10% overcapacity situation in mind (exclusive of warranty demands).  When comparing oranges to oranges (chassis to chassis) with Euro-specs, youll generally see a greater weight spec for a given chassis in the Euro-zone, whether for towing figures, or for an overall chassis load.  Here in the US (yeah!), we thumb our collective noses at authority, while over there, they have a much more stringent motor inspection regime overall.
107  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Weights and Measures on: December 21, 2009, 02:13:01 pm
Hoo!  Hoo!  As Homer Simpson would say, Look at that flab fly!

Thanks, JWHYT10!  True data gold!  My Rosetta Stone!

2010 (2009 chassis?) Ford E350 PC2400 wet weight, as per jwhyt10s actually weighed PC, adjusted by adding full chassis fuel:

11,500#  (less 2006 E350 GVWR) =

825#  Net Payload, or CCC

Already, Ive picked up the weight of my desired scooter alone (300#) over my previous guesstimate on the potential 2006 chassis unit purchase presented!  I must have conservatively over-estimated the stripped chassis weight as originally quoted the V10s drivetrain package w/5-speed TorqShift automatic need not necessarily be proportionally heavier than the speced V8 w/the 4 speed.  And this info proves it.

Even better, jwhyt10s PC2400 has the large slide, including both the sofa and wardrobe, while the 2006 available to me has only the sofa in the slide.  All else being equal, the oft quoted weight penalty for a sofa-only slide has been 400#.  Adding in the fact that this larger slide scales out to an additional 75% in length or size, per floor plan renderings, I gain an additional savings of 300# or so on my proposed units GVWR.  Granted, while solely proportionally-extrapolated weights have not proven to be accurate, add back in the possibly heavier chassis components that provide his newer chassis additional 1000# of GVWR, and Im still back at an additional #300 of payload capacity, or:

1,125# Net Payload (at the very least) for a 2006 PC2400 sofa slide only, which is absolutely sufficient for my needs!

Again, thank you so much, jwhyt10!  Your information has been a balm upon my soul!

Also, thanks for the info on the AeroBed in previous posts.  It will be a balm upon my errr, ummm bum!  LOL!
108  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Weights and Measures on: December 17, 2009, 10:38:17 am
Hey there, NC -

Do you have a slide - and if so, just the couch - or does it include the fridge as well?
109  Main Forum / General Discussion / Weights and Measures on: December 16, 2009, 03:01:43 pm
Hi All

Again, thanks for all of your help.  To recap, researching a potential purchase of a new, dealer inventory PC2400 on the 2006 E350 chassis.  As someone who values engineers (God bless em) and their contributions to making our day-to-day lives happy and hassle-free, I have great respect for the GVWR ratings on a given motorhome chassis.  I want to make sure that I have an adequate reserve in terms of available coach carrying capacity, or payload.  (Tow rating and GCWR not a problem at all.)  Granted, there is no substitute for actually weighing a unit, yet Im attempting to figure this out theoretically.  Please let me know if you see any errors, or have actual weight or specification knowledge to the contrary.

As advertised here, the same-spec 2400 model (with sofa slide) on the Sprinter chassis is 9,300# (empty ?).  Subtracting the published empty shipping weight of the Sprinter chassis (4,422#) = 4,878#+/- for the 2400 house itself.

The 2006 E350 chassis published weight is 5,066#, speced with a 5.4 V8, 4-speed automatic, 35 gallon fuel tank, and 158 chassis length.  Substituting the 6.8 V10, the 5-speed, a 55 gallon tank and an additional 6 of chassis length, Im assuming 5,400# +/- for the chassis?

If so, then:

2006 Ford chassis   5,400
PC2400 House      4,878

Total:         10,278

Add:         10,278
55 gallons gas           341
31 gallons water           259
6 gallons water heater           50
full propane tank             42

Total empty wet:   10,970# +/-
Less 2006 GVWR   (11,500)

Net Payload      530# +/-(?)

Including myself, a large diner dinner and my contemplated possessions and provisions, it looks like itll work.  However, if considering a Honda SH150i scooter instead of a toad (300#) + rack (100#?). Im way over the GVWR (leveraged effects on rear axle weight ratings aside).

On the other hand, perhaps Ive overestimated my chassis weight?  Elsewhere, Ron Dittmer has published an empty weight of his 2007 PC2350 as 9,200#.  Adding in the additional cabinetry, sofa slide, barrel chair setup an additional 6 in overall length, could that account for an additional 1,000#?

Ron, if youre reading this, the 2006 and 2007 chassis should be close - do you know what your base chassis weight is?

Any other PC2400 owners know what their actual or estimated weights are?  Keep in mind that 2008+ chassis have a GVWR of 12,500# as compared to a 2006/2007 GVWR of 11,500#.
110  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Such A Deal? on: December 14, 2009, 05:06:56 pm

Richard2 said:

>>>>  Hello, I just purchased a used 2005 PC 2100. It was not purchased by the original owner until August 2007. Once I got the motorhome to my place of residence, I checked with Ford and they said the warranty was good, bumper to bumper for the Ford portion, until August 2010. So it depends when the unit is actually sold.

Thanks.  Your response is what I had anticipated, however, its good to hear real-world fact in that regard.

Love that 2100 for all the obvious reasons, and would ordinarily consider one for myself, except for the fact that anyone kind would consider me to be husky, or worse yet for the blunt, portly.  LOL!  Comparing the scaled floorplans, much less the bath photos of units out there, the 2400 would appear to provide the necessary, ummm, clearance in order for me to go about my, err, ummm, business.  In recognition of the possibility of extended full timing, the additional wardrobe as well as the added pantry/storage cabinet will likely be extremely useful for me.

>>>>  everyone I spoke with, said that there is no harmful effect to the motor, etc (for an unused unit).

Good to know, and disregarding the other coach accouterments, I now wonder about any such effect on the Onan generator in this regard.  Anyone?

>>>>  One thing I missed when I looked at mine prior to purchasing, was the roof.

Ive read your posting elsewhere on this issue, and thanks so much for your generous spirit in bringing this to my attention!  I might not have considered this issue to be part of my anticipated inspection regime on the unit available had you not brought up the subject.  While bereft of practical experience in this regard, all my armchair research would indicate that as long as this flaw isnt allowing water into the coach or the body sandwich, the worst consequence would be that of a visual flaw, thankfully up high and out of sight. 

While in the ol armchair here, I recall reading a second-hand (or long term) owners testimonial somewhere out there on the net regarding a persistent water leak.  He enlisted Kermits help in this matter, and stated that they literally tore off the rear coach wall assembly, fixed the issue, and then sent him on his way at little or no cost, paraphrasing a quote from Kermit as, this should not be happening.

Granted, such service should be considered within the terms of whats reasonable financially, and it would appear from your posts that you are a realistic and reasonable gentleman based on your stated expectations of what is possible.  However, that post alone clued me in to not only a superior product, but also a worthy and deserving manufacturer and principal as well.
111  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Such A Deal? on: December 14, 2009, 04:28:25 pm
Again, thank you!

NC Sailors said:

>>>>  We found a similar deal on a similar 2551 Ford gas unit in NC. The price was right but I wanted a diesel chassis and a diesel generator. Therefore, we went and got a 2010 2350S from the factory.

I get what youre saying, NC I appreciate better hardware over frou-frou.  However, Ive made my peace with gassers, at least in this particular instance of opportunity, although my initial love affair was with the Sprinter chassis.  I too, see the wisdom of fueling the genny with chassis fuel (the smartest choice IMHO), whereas the general inclination by dealers is to stock Sprinter units of other coach manufacturers whose gennys are fueled by propane.  If by luck, or by order, such a chassis is available in pure diesel, youre still confronted by the 25 gallon tank vs. the 55 gallon tank on the Ford, although auxiliary tanks (non-NHTSA-spec) are available at a price.  I anticipate a lot of the great beyond for my own needs.

On the other hand, if choosing diesel, the Sprinter is the very best choice, if for any reason, cab noise levels.  Being well acquainted with the Sprinter van (as well as Ford and Chevy diesels) as used in the expedited freight industry, the superior overall refinement and noise levels of the Sprinter chassis is absolutely indisputable, and overall operational economy is always worth considering.  While Mercedes gasser (if still available) saves about $6 K at MSRP, you give up 16 MPG, vs. 12 MPG, as well as all the necessary torque.  While the Ford diesel would likely produce 14 MPG, its a $10K MSRP premium over the 6.8, which still provides comparable torque (albeit at higher revs), and can deliver 12MPG as long as Im judicious with cruising speed, tire inflation, and dont mind the resultant rattling cupboards.  Testimonials regarding the cost to tow reasonably sized toads with either chassis appear to be 1 MPG.

  In the current opportunity presented, I cannot foresee paying of that $10K Ford premium over the life of my coach ownership, although as priced in the Sprinter, could be worth the argument.  Thus the only other remaining concern I have with the Sprinter is simply the remaining available load capacity re: GVWR.

>>>>  you should require that the dealer change the engine oil and brake fluid.    tires are only good for six years.  the chassis and coach batteries will also have aged somewhat in the 2.5 years.

DOH!  Thanks!  Forgot brakes, but yes, figured on only another 2-3 years for tires.  As for batteries, still havent found a sealed battery that lasted more than 4 years yet, so I expect to replace the chassis battery.  As for the house batteries, I have no previous experience, although in the old days had always been able to nurse serviceable batteries out to 6 years in my cars although I dont trust the dealer to have serviced them adequately.

Whatever maintenance or repairs I might consider, I would rather discount the necessary service in the purchase price, and rely on my own funds and supervision to make sure its done right to my own requirements.  Trust, but verify, eh?
112  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Such A Deal? on: December 14, 2009, 03:13:24 pm
Thank you so much for the responses and discussion thus far, I appreciate the help as well as the enthusiasm you all project for the PC.

Via email, captgw2 said:

>>>>  It appears you DO get the 5 speed transmission with that model year. I have one in my 2010 2350 and it IS a wonderful tranny!

Agreed, based on everything that Ive read.  Thanks for the 2006 brochure link, and while not specific to the cab chassis, it seems incontrovertible that it was matched with both the 6.8 V10, as well as for the 6.0 V8 diesel, without any other choice or option.  Once I see it, I know Ill see the Haul/Tow switch on the shift lever, but wouldnt even consider looking at it in the first place if it was not so equipped.  Except in the very earliest years on the 6.8, this powertrain combo seems to be well sorted out in terms of owner satisfaction and reliability.

>>>>  As for $54k, that seems like a pretty good price. Just as long as you are not having to dump another $1k plus into replacing dry rotted tires and treating the underbody rust.

Well, it is what it is.  Knowing what I need to look out for and budget for is all part of the equation, as long as its priced accordingly to allow for those needs that need to be met.

>>>>  You may want to call the factory and speak with Stuart or Kermit about the warranty. They are usually familiar with where their "children" are and the sales status.

If I get that far on this unit, I would definitely call Kermit.  From what Ive been reading here and elsewhere, I have no doubt he would consider this to be one of his children!  He can probably specifically remember it rolling past him and out the door.  LOL!

>>>>  For the record, I saw two leftovers that just werent very good. I ended up getting a 2350 from the factory EXACTLY the way I wanted it at a helluva price.

Dont doubt it for a minute.  However, even with expected outlays on possible repairs and/or upgrades, I think Im still ahead by $20 K or so, and I do have a budget.  It also probably reflects closely to what Id want in a 2400.  If chosing new, Id go with the gray scheme, and perhaps even the E450 chassis, yet this is full body (and interior) in blue, my favorite color.  While I think the cherry looks rich and expensive, it has maple, which really does brighten things up quite a bit, and unlikely to be an option Id be willing to spend on anyway.  Fabric seating and slide-out couch as Id want it, although without the thermopane windows or rear monitor camera, things Id likely order new.  Only reticent on the windows, as full timing for a while is contemplated.
113  Main Forum / General Discussion / Such A Deal? on: December 12, 2009, 07:09:59 pm
I have a local dealer that is selling a new leftover 2006 PC2400.  Cant figure out why its still a leftover, other than hes a small concern with a slow turnover, and got caught with it in the downturn.  While built on the 2006 E350 chassis, it would seem he took delivery of it in the first quarter of 2007.  This would indicate its been sitting for 2.5 years.  Dont have the absolute particulars on this unit, as Id rather know everything I can before subjecting myself to a salescreature.

Original list was $88,000+, now priced at $54,000.

1) Sound like a good deal?

As far as the chassis goes, my concerns are:

2) Will Fords chassis warranty still start at the time of my delivery?

3) Anyone know if the 2006 chassis included the 5-speed TorqShift tranny?

4) What concerns should I have regarding a new chassis unused and sitting for so long?

Im trying to get an idea if such a situation will result in a trouble-free purchase.  I can foresee some necessary service and/or possibly necessary part replacements due to component age/unit inactivity.  If not a lost cause, just trying to figure out what expenses or problems I may be faced with to inform my decision on purchase price vs true overall cost.

Thank you for any help you can provide on these issues.
114  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Introduce Yourself! on: December 12, 2009, 06:26:15 pm
Hello Everyone -

I guess I'm the first RV Wannabe here.  Ive long considered having an RV, but I feel Im close to having to make a decision soon, if anything, for my mental health.  Ive been out of meaningful work for a couple of years now (prospects are still looking grim), but thanks to careful money management and no debt, I remain at the point where if I make the right decisions, I can still have an adventure.  Two family members, when faced with intractable personal situations, did the RV escape, mostly full timing in Class Cs for a couple of years, and their trips seemed to have worked their magic.  Perhaps shaking things up will work for me as well.  It certainly beats staring at the same 4 walls and meager job prospects day after day.  Perhaps being mobile and out there might present me with some new opportunities.

I never seemed to be able to find what I liked, but had recently become enamored with the View/Navion twins, and thus the call of the road.  However, the more I read and researched, Ive become convinced that a B+ would be the best choice, and that a PC would be just the ticket.  In comparison to the Sprinter-based units, the Ford chassis appears to be the best choice in terms of GVWR & GCVWR, as well as for finding abundant and reasonably priced chassis service wherever I go.

After comparing all the choices and reading all the numerous posts out there on various sites, the PC seems to be the best value for the money.  Except for one seemingly crazy customer out there, Ive found nothing but satisfaction from PC owners, and the exceptional consideration and support provided by Kermit for his owners.  Being in the suburbs of Chicago, the Elkhart factory seems to be of a reasonable distance in terms of getting proper modifications or repairs, if needed.

I hope that you will help me out with the questions I have regarding a particular unit available to me, and any others I might have going forward.
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