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1816  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Calling All PC Owners With "True Average" Fuel Economy Figures on: March 26, 2012, 05:30:08 pm
Oh absolutely Aimee.  Let me fix that.

.............How is that?
1817  Main Forum / General Discussion / Calling All PC Owners With "True Average" Fuel Economy Figures on: March 26, 2012, 05:24:58 pm
Please Do NOT post one or two time fill ups, short trips, Scan-guage read-outs, head or tail winds.  You are free to share that in other threads.
Lets post solid figures here for us and prospective patrons to read how our areo-dynamic rigs do with fuel consumption.

If you have tracked your fuel economy accurately over thousands of miles, please share your figures with the rest of us.  Be sure to include the following
- The year and model of your PC
- The chassis and chassis year (E350, E450, Sprinter)
- Dry weight of your PC as stated on the PC sticker
- Towing, No or Yes (if yes, what exactly including weight of tow)
- Miles driven
- Top practiced speed limits
- Type of fuel generally purchased (Octane -Low, Mid-grade, High)
- how your figures were calculated

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

For Me....

2007 PC-2350
2007 E350 with V10 engine
9200 pound dry weight (no slide out)
Towing, see below
Miles driven, see below
Practiced speed limits, see below
Always the lowest octane sold (87 in most places, 85 at high altitude places)
Fuel economy, averaged from the gas station near home, back to that same gas station, keeping accurate record of gallons purchased along the way.

Trip "A"  (during break-in period...if there is such a thing as a break-in period anymore)
- towing a 2200 pound, 2000 Toyota MR2 Spyder, 100% of the time.  This means that all locally driven miles are done with the car.  The PC stayed parked at camp sites.
- 5039 mile journey from Chicago, to San Francisco, to Las Vegas, and a lot of places in between.  Highway, mountain and canyon driving combined.
- top speed is consistently 5 mph over posted speed limits when towing, but never exceeding 70mph.
Averaged over the 5039 miles driven = 9.5 mpg

Trip "B"
- towing 4300 pound, 2006 Jeep Liberty 4x4, 100% of the time.  This means that all locally driven miles are done with the 4x4.  The PC stayed parked at camp sites.
- 3826 mile journey from Chicago, to Jasper Alberta and a lot of places in between.  Highway & mountain driving combined.
- top speed is consistently 5 mph over posted speed limits when towing, but never exceeding 70mph.
Averaged over the 3826 miles driven = 9.2 mpg

Trip "C"  (very short trip, almost doesn't meet my own criteria)
- Not towing anything so all driving was done with the motor home.
- shorter trip of about 800 miles, 700 highway, 100 local.
- loaded up with 5 adults for a wedding.
- typical cruising speed was 65mph on the open road interstate driving.
Averaged over the 800 miles driven = 10.2 mpg

These figures are as accurate as I could get with no fluff of any kind.  Actually I favored worse economy when averaging 10ths of gallons, so if anything my true fuel economy is better than stated.
1818  Main Forum / General Discussion / Sprinter vs Ford (was: Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used.) on: March 26, 2012, 04:27:52 pm
For the recond on this forum, our 2007 E350-V10 PC-2350 has gotten this fuel economy, averaged from the gas station near home, back to that same gas station, keeping accurate record of gallons purchased along the way.

Trip "A"  (during break-in period...if there is a break-in period)
- towing 2200 pound car 100% of the time.  This means that all locally driven miles are done with the car.  The PC stayed parked at camp sites.
- 5039 mile journey from Chicago, to San Francisco, to Las Vegas, and a lot of places in between.  Highway, mountain and canyon driving combined.
- top speed is consistently 5 mph over posted speed limits when towing, but never exceeding 70mph.
Averaged over the 5039 miles driven = 9.5 mpg


Trip "B"
- towing 4300 pound 4x4 100% of the time.  This means that all locally driven miles are done with the 4x4.  The PC stayed parked at camp sites.
- 3826 mile journey from Chicago, to Jasper Alberta and a lot of places in between.  Highway & mountain driving combined.
- top speed is consistently 5 mph over posted speed limits when towing, but never exceeding 70mph.
Averaged over the 3826 miles driven = 9.2 mpg


Trip "C"
- Not towing anything so all driving was done with the motor home.
- shorter trip of about 800 miles, 700 highway, 100 local.
- loaded up with 5 adults for a wedding.
- typical cruising speed was 65mph on the open road interstate driving.
Averaged over the 800 miles driven = 10.2 mpg

These figures are as accurate as I could get with no fluff of any kind.  I favored worse economy when averaging 10ths of gallons, so if anything my true fuel economy would be better, not worse.

I think I will start a new thread on MPG, sseking everyones "Accurate" figures.
1819  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 24, 2012, 07:20:37 pm
About the rear corner bed.  It really comes down to, having the person by the exit get out in order to allow the other to get out.  With us, that comes to once overnight which we both find the need to visit the room next door.  It works....just not ideal like at home.  But so much better than us sleeping separate, and also sleeping in a cab-over where it's double trouble.  The one person must get out like we do, but in the smaller rigs, you can't even sit upright to scooch over.  That drove us crazy in our first tiny rig with cabover bed.
1820  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 24, 2012, 12:31:32 pm
Sherman,

When you visit your family in Sycamore, IL be sure to stop by our house with your wife.  It would be good for both of you to see an example of the "other" choice.

It is hard to determine the weight of a slide out.

I did ask that same question back in 2007, the days of the smaller slide out.  I was told it would add 400 pounds to my 2350.  The assumption that the larger slide out today adds an additional 100 pounds is conceivable, assuming the data given me is accurate.

I would assume the weight involves extra framing of the exterior wall, floor reinforcement, tracks, the awning topper, trim, gaskets, etc, etc, and the differences in furniture.  The dinette weighs hardly anything.  I think the heavist thing is the table itself.
1821  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 23, 2012, 08:35:50 pm
1) You said, "...the barrel chair pivots and moves forward and backward.  It can be positioned to utilize the dining table without too much of a reach." -- How is this possible?  That chair is secured to the floor, right?

2) You said, "...it might be worth considering the "UN-Documented" option of getting the single bed located over the front cab." -- I'm assuming that this is not possible with the Sprinter chassis, correct?  

3) Gradygal said, "The 2551 has twin beds-GREAT-and a lower tv. And a terribly hard ride." -- Why the extra-hard ride?  Is the E-450 suspension that much stiffer?  (PS: I really like the two captain's chairs and table idea).

4)  if we could get the 'undocumented' single bunk over the cab with a Sprinter chassis.  The bunk would replace the lost sleeping area, but we would (as you said) be giving up storage space.  That might be a worthwhile trade-off though.
1) Our 3rd captain seat is bolted to the floor.  It has an adjustment to pull forward, regardless of the direction it faces.  So if you face the table with the seat, pull forward to the table.  You cannot eat at our dinette, but you can easily place things there while "lap" eating.

2) The undocumented over-the-cab bed would be for a small child, maybe two if they get along.  I don't think it could accomodate an adult.  And you are correct in assuming the Sprinter's head clearence would be very confining.

3) Understand the E450 is used on the largest of class-C motor homes.  So for a lighter weighted smaller 2551, there is excessive CCC margin, so the ride would naturally be rougher due to the stiffness of the suspension.  Did you ever drive a box truck, empty, and full?  Empty is jarring, full is a cushy ride.  The same principle here.

4) The undocumented over-cab bed would offer a massive open storage area, so much more than usual because the chassis roof would not be cut away.  You get a very strong front cab for roll-over protection, but give up the easy pass-thru and also give up the place to mount a TV.  The over-all interior would surely feel more confining.
I wonder if someone ever requested that front area to be full size (no pass-thru cutout) enclosed with cabinet doors.  That would make a huge enclosed storage area.
1822  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 22, 2012, 11:36:48 pm
Sherman,

It is absolutely impossible to place the size dinette I have in the slide-out of "Any" 2350 (and many other models) Ford or Sprinter.  The slide-out wall thickness & interior trim (both sides) of the slide-out eats up many inches of linear wall.  Also the transition/angled wall directly behind the driver cannot get utilized.  Slide-outs of every kind cannot utilize that angled wall.

The older models with smaller slide-out, the fridge is stationary.  My dinette butts right up against the fridge and on the opposite end, it utilizes half of the angled wall.  With slide-outs, that angled wall space is sometimes utilized with creative cabinetry.

The newer models with larger slide-out, the fridge is inside the slide-out, therefore gets shifted maybe 4 to 5 inches toward the driver which yields the same losses in wall space.

Study the floor plans of the 2350 with and without a slide- out.  Note how the no-slide dinette utilizes the angled wall, but the slide-out couch cannot.  This is how and why my dinette is bigger than it could be in any slide-out.

It might be more clear if you closely study the pictures of my dinette directly behind the driver HERE.  It is hard to see the wall behind the driver is angled, but it is angled all the way to the dinette window.  The backrest cushion there is smaller than the cushion on the other side.  A very small sacrifice for a nice size dinette.
1823  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 22, 2012, 03:00:17 pm
Sherman,

I emailed you the pdf of the 2009 brochure in 3 separate sections.  You can reassemble it back into one brochure on your computer.

It s an 11 page brochure.  For some reason pages 10 and 11 are massively MB'd compared to pages 1 thru 9.  I tried to reduce them, but did not have any luck yet.

To the general community, if you want a copy of the 2007, 2009, or 2011 brochures in pdf, give me your email through my profile and I'll email them to you as well.
1824  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 21, 2012, 08:43:22 pm
Sherman, I emailed you a TON of data, what I have on some previous PC model years, and Chassis years as well.

51MB in all.  I hope your email server can handle it.  Let me know if you get 7 emails from me.  The first email of the 2007 PC brochure by itself can be deleted.  I later saw I had all 6 sheets in one PDF file so I resent it along with the 2011 brochure.

Oh boy, the 2009 Brochure just bouced back because it is 16.4MB, more than I am allowed to send from here.  Compressed, it is still too big.  Sorry about that.

So you should get 5 good emails with 44MB of chassis and PC data.
1825  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 20, 2012, 11:30:15 pm
Sherman,

How far are you from the town of Mendon, MA?  I ask because there is a former Phoenix USA dealer there that has a 2007 2350 and a 2008 2400 that you could size up.  I think both have slideouts.  Both were never titled and may still carry some sort of new warranties.  They might be considered demonstrators.  Click Here To Get To His Website.  Then Click On Inventory  We special ordered our 2350 from him in 2007.  Don Keller the one and only owner/employee is a great guy to talk with.  He might be over 80 years old and has strong morals, very good ethics.  He might give you a great deal on one of his 2 PCs.  I would not look at his advertised prices.  Just pay a visit and see if either fit you two perfectly.  If you are seriously interested, then try and work a deal with Don.  If you can't agree on a price, then you at least are better educated with PCs in general, and very much educated on those two specific models.

Your visit there could help you in making a decision on what to order direct from the factory, or maybe even drop the PC line altogether.
1826  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 19, 2012, 12:48:54 pm
Aimee, how do we navigate to the tour page?  It would be ideal if there was a dedicated blue button on the left-hand side with the others.
1827  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 19, 2012, 09:51:54 am
Something else that would be very helpful would be an archive section that has brochures with features, specs, options, etc for previous model years.  Very few mfrs seem to do this either (WGO is one that does).
I ask Aimee that question once every few years.

I have PDFs of 4 model years...2007, 2009, 2011, 2012
1828  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 19, 2012, 09:39:26 am
Keep in-mind the 2350 dimensions I am providing are from my 2007 model year.

Dinette
Bed dimensions:  71W x 36D (71W is with cushions removed, finished board to finished board)
Table dimensions: 29W x 34D
Leg room: 29.5W
Overall dimension of dinette: 73.5W x 37D
I am 5'-11" so it was a surprise to me to see the width matched my height.  The few times I slept on the dinette when sick, I guess I never slept like a soldier laying at attention.  It seemed to be plenty wide for me.

Shower
Just above the shower pan: 34W x 23D
Max to skylight dome: 73H
Keep in mind, the shower narrows as it gets higher due to the curved exterior wall.  The roof is crowned, so the shower ceiling is vaulted.  Looking at my shower, if PC-USA installed the plumbing on the opposite "outside" wall, there would be much more room to take a shower.  But that would put the plumbing in a sealed vacu-bonded wall, not a hollow interior wall.  If I were to order a new PC just for me, I would still inquire about doing that, and discuss any repercusions of it.  You might end up with a raised wall panel/channel for the two pipes to pass through.  I can see why they did it the way it is, given the plumbing is done before the exterior walls are installed.  But it would have been nice.
1829  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 18, 2012, 03:21:35 pm
Our first motor home Here was a one piece like Coach House, but much simpler and used low grade finish materials.  Brand new it cost us $12,225 in 1983.  Strangely enough, I still dealt with a little water getting inside.  Most got in from the dual hindging rear wall & door, some from around the marker lights and some around the windows.  The one piece shell suffered from a few stress cracks, but never was structural nor involved concern for water.

Very few 2350s with a fixed dinette (no-slide) exist.  Nearly all have a sofa in a slideout as it is quite the popular choice.
My wife and I have to be the odd-balls in our thinking.  You should see our regular house.  We designed a one-of-a-kind.

The relative height of the TV is notably higher in a Sprinter than in either Ford given the driver's cab ceiling height is significant higher.  PC-USA compensates by using a taller B+ cap on the Ford, and a low profile version on the Sprinter.  Of coarse, the cabinets on each side of the TV are smaller.  I personally don't see any of this being significant.  Just noting the minor differences for the discussion.  Some would say the improved head room the Sprinter's front cab is better at opening it up for living room space.







1830  Main Forum / General Discussion / Re: Selling your 2350 with dinette? Want to buy used. on: March 17, 2012, 10:24:01 am
...any idea why it is not available at the PC website?
I would assume because it is outdated.
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