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Weights and Measures

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DownBy TheRiver

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Weights and Measures
« on: December 16, 2009, 03:01:43 pm »
Hi All –

Again, thanks for all of your help.  To recap, researching a potential purchase of a new, dealer inventory PC2400 on the 2006 E350 chassis.  As someone who values engineers (God bless em’) and their contributions to making our day-to-day lives happy and hassle-free, I have great respect for the GVWR ratings on a given motorhome chassis.  I want to make sure that I have an adequate reserve in terms of available coach carrying capacity, or payload.  (Tow rating and GCWR not a problem at all.)  Granted, there is no substitute for actually weighing a unit, yet I’m attempting to figure this out theoretically.  Please let me know if you see any errors, or have actual weight or specification knowledge to the contrary.

As advertised here, the same-spec 2400 model (with sofa slide) on the Sprinter chassis is 9,300# (empty ?).  Subtracting the published empty shipping weight of the Sprinter chassis (4,422#) = 4,878#+/- for the 2400 “house” itself.

The 2006 E350 chassis’ published weight is 5,066#, spec’ed with a 5.4 V8, 4-speed automatic, 35 gallon fuel tank, and 158” chassis length.  Substituting the 6.8 V10, the 5-speed, a 55 gallon tank and an additional 6” of chassis length, I’m assuming 5,400# +/- for the chassis?

If so, then:

2006 Ford chassis   5,400
PC2400 House      4,878

Total:         10,278


Add:         10,278
55 gallons gas           341
31 gallons water           259
6 gallons water heater           50
full propane tank             42

Total empty “wet”:   10,970# +/-
Less 2006 GVWR   (11,500)

Net Payload      530# +/-(?)

Including myself, a large diner dinner and my contemplated possessions and provisions, it looks like it’ll work.  However, if considering a Honda SH150i scooter instead of a toad (300#) + rack (100#?). I’m way over the GVWR (leveraged effects on rear axle weight ratings aside).

On the other hand, perhaps I’ve overestimated my chassis weight?  Elsewhere, Ron Dittmer has published an “empty weight” of his 2007 PC2350 as 9,200#.  Adding in the additional cabinetry, sofa slide, barrel chair setup an additional 6” in overall length, could that account for an additional 1,000#?

Ron, if you’re reading this, the 2006 and 2007 chassis should be close - do you know what your base chassis weight is?

Any other PC2400 owners know what their actual or estimated weights are?  Keep in mind that 2008+ chassis have a GVWR of 12,500# as compared to a 2006/2007 GVWR of 11,500#.

Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2009, 09:37:18 am »
We were also concerned about how much we could safely carry in our 2350S. I asked how much it weighed when I picked it up at the factory and Kermit said that it weighed 9,300 lbs. I asked where that number came from. He said that they weighed the first one and based the GVW of subsequent units on that measurement. Since my as built unit is different; e.g., a diesel generator, I see that the 9,300 lbs is an approximation. Whatever the GVW, the GVWR is 11,030 lbs. The CCC is at best 1,730 lbs probably less.

I would still like to know what the unit actually weighs so I still need to weight it. My younger son, who just changed careers from surveying to truck driver, said all I need to do is take the unit to a truck stop with scales and pay a small fee to have it weighed.

There is an online GVW calculator at http://changingears.com/rv-sec-calc-adjust-gvw.shtml. In addition, the Sprinter Body Builder Information Book (that I found online) has lots of information on vehicle weights and center of gravity.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~

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DownBy TheRiver

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Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2009, 10:38:17 am »
Hey there, NC -

Do you have a slide - and if so, just the couch - or does it include the fridge as well?

Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #3 on: December 17, 2009, 11:14:17 am »
Our 2350S has the Aerobed/sofa and the refer in the slide....
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ (\_ ~ (\_ ~ (\_~ ~ ~ ~

Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2009, 04:05:36 pm »
I purchased a 2010 PC2400 and was also concerned about weights. It has the sofa/closet slide out on a 350 Chassis.  I took it to a scale and it weighed in with full water, propane and approx 50% fuel at 10,500 Lbs.  With a 12,500 I feel comfortable that I have enough capacity for my needs. 

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DownBy TheRiver

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  • OwnPC: No
  • NewUsed: New
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  • Model: 2910
  • ModelYear: 2910D is my favorite model
  • Slide: Yes
  • IntColor: Dusk
  • ExtColor: Dusk
  • Location: N/E Illinois
Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2009, 02:13:01 pm »
Hoo!  Hoo!  As Homer Simpson would say, “Look at that flab fly”!

Thanks, JWHYT10!  True data gold!  My Rosetta Stone!

2010 (2009 chassis?) Ford E350 PC2400 “wet” weight, as per “jwhyt10”’s actually weighed PC, adjusted by adding full chassis fuel:

10,675#
11,500#  (less 2006 E350 GVWR) =

825#  Net Payload, or CCC

Already, I’ve picked up the weight of my desired scooter alone (300#) over my previous “guesstimate” on the potential 2006 chassis unit purchase presented!  I must have conservatively over-estimated the stripped chassis weight as originally quoted – the V10’s drivetrain package w/5-speed TorqShift automatic need not necessarily be proportionally heavier than the spec’ed V8 w/the 4 speed.  And this info proves it.

Even better, “jwhyt10”’s PC2400 has the large slide, including both the sofa and wardrobe, while the 2006 available to me has only the sofa in the slide.  All else being equal, the oft quoted weight penalty for a sofa-only slide has been 400#.  Adding in the fact that this larger slide scales out to an additional 75% in length or size, per floor plan renderings, I gain an additional savings of 300# or so on my proposed unit’s GVWR.  Granted, while solely proportionally-extrapolated weights have not proven to be accurate, add back in the possibly heavier chassis components that provide his newer chassis’ additional 1000# of GVWR, and I’m still back at an additional #300 of payload capacity, or:

1,125# Net Payload (at the very least) for a 2006 PC2400 sofa slide only, which is absolutely sufficient for my needs!

Again, thank you so much, “jwhyt10”!  Your information has been a balm upon my soul!

Also, thanks for the info on the AeroBed in previous posts.  It will be a balm upon my errr, ummm … bum!  LOL!

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DownBy TheRiver

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  • ExtColor: Dusk
  • Location: N/E Illinois
Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2009, 04:27:24 pm »
Hey NC Sailors –

Thanks so much for your input on weights.  At the time (and perhaps still), I only had a mixed set of apples to oranges comparisons to make – and perhaps this is still so.

However, based upon the 2010 PC2400 E350 weighed info provided by JWHYT10, when juxtaposed against my previously uninformed assumptions for a 2006 PC2400 E350, your statement on weights for your new PC2350S, as provided by Kermit, should prove to be fairly accurate - I would think.

First, consider that Ron Dittmer’s PC2350 E350 (with a fairly identical “house”) weighs 9,200# “wet” without ANY slides.  If I directly apply JWHYT10’s actual weights to my prior assumptions on Ford’s E350 chassis weight, I end up with 5,100# +/- for the V10 Ford E350 chassis.  Meanwhile, if comparing against your Sprinter chassis weight of 4,400 +/-, I arrive at a difference of roughly 700# in total unit weight, which just so happens to be my estimate on a “large” slide’s additional weight.  Tah Dah!

All that’s left then, is an approximately 100#+ discrepancy, which is “fueled” by the fact that your own delivery experience informs us that you probably had only 5 gallons of fuel upon delivery, the likely situation presented us with an overall “factory” weight as provided Kermit.  Throw into the mix the variability between your Sprinter unit’s greater fresh water capacity vs. lesser fuel capacity vs. whatever differential in weight results in substituting Ron’s built-in-place dinette vs. your electrically-powered bed sofa, vs. additional or lesser weight produced by Ron’s chassis mod’s, and presto – your stated weight of 9,300# of loaded and/or provided unit weight karma and an available 1,750#+/- payload on the Sprinter.  Oohhmmm!

Obviously, this analysis is not any sort of a substitute for actually-weighted unit data, but is nonetheless food for thought.  Regardless of the foregoing, I would endeavor to weigh my own unit (if purchased) in some known state of “trim”.  My own armchair observations are that knowing overall weight, as well as front-to-rear as well as side-to-side actual weight data at each corner would inform me as to my available capacities within my GVWR, but also as to how I would best load my unit overall while remaining within the engineered ratings for my chassis.

However, being the son of an Engineer (sigh! – a “heavy burden”), as well as having been an Architectural/Engineering student myself (unmatriculated), I know that in this country, such figures are often advanced with a more realistic 5-10% overcapacity situation in mind (exclusive of warranty demands).  When comparing oranges to oranges (chassis to chassis) with Euro-specs, you’ll generally see a greater weight spec for a given chassis in the Euro-zone, whether for towing figures, or for an overall chassis load.  Here in the US (yeah!), we thumb our collective noses at “authority”, while over there, they have a much more stringent motor inspection regime overall.

Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #7 on: February 28, 2010, 01:12:25 pm »
 Hi
’m new to the Forum looking over PCs trying to compare several of the PC models on the Ford 450 chassis….Looking to downsize after larger ones.  I’m trying to calculate each vehicle’s CCC or the maximum cargo capacity of any vehicle I would purchase.  In other words, what can I legally and safely put in the darn thing?  But I, like most RV purchaser’s, am stymied by the lack of required numbers to do this.

We’re given:

GVWR=   (Gross Vehicle Weight Rating) - the maximum allowable total weight rating of the chassis when the RV is loaded - including the weight of the RV itself plus engine fluids, fuel, water, driver, passengers, cargo, and trailer tongue weight.  This is a chassis rating from the chassis manufacturer, not an RV rating.

GCWR (=GCVWR) = (Gross Combined Weight Rating) - GVWR plus any towed weight.  GVWR and GCWR are both determined by the RV chassis manufacturer and are the weights used by authorities and insurance companies to judge weight exceedances of an RV or RV + toad after an accident.

What we don’t have:

GVW  =  (Gross Vehicle Weight) – The total actual weight of a fully equipped and loaded RV with driver, passengers, gas, oil, propane, water, food, clothes, camping and personal gear.  GVW should not legally or safely exceed the GVWR.  The prospective buyer can easily calculate all the above before buying except the empty dry weight of the unit as delivered.

DW  =  (Dry Weight)  -  The weight of the empty RV as delivered without any fluids, water, cargo, or people.  This should be the actual weight of the RV when the factory delivers it to the customer after all options have been added.  Ideally, each unit would be weighed after fabrication and its unique DW put on the RV nameplate by the RV manufacturer, both for liability protection to the manufacturer and safety of the owner.

CCC  =  (Cargo Carrying Capacity) – The maximum weight of everything you could add to the RV and still have a GVW under GVWR, i.e., the difference between GVWR and DW.  Because of options, this is also unique to each RV that leaves the plant.  The manufacturer should ideally also have that stamped on an RV nameplate in the factory.

Discussion on RV weights in the PC Forum to-date have not permitted a prospective owner to compare CCC between models because DW values have only been estimates and we don’t have weights of options  This is one reason RV owners often overestimate CCC because DW estimates don’t accurately figure options for each unique rig.  A new owner can easily get into serious over-weight situations without accurate Dry Weight data.   Owners and prospective buyers both need to know the actual DW of each model as delivered with its options, slides, type of genset, etc. in order to calculate an accurate CCC.  An owner can of course, find a truck scale and weigh the rig on leaving the factory, but it would be valuable for owners through the RV’s life  to have the unique DW as delivered stamped on a door frame plate. 

Phoenix Cruisers could also really help prospective owners by posting the DW for each basic model and added weights of each option on this Forum.  Then we could do the gas, propane, water, people, and cargo assumptions and determine accurate CCC for each model we are considering.  Given the unique design of PCs, I believe these published numbers would give the company a leg up in the Class B+/small to medium C market, especially for those rigs on 450 the chassis considering the very large CCC of those PCs.

If any of these above definitions don’t fit with others, I stand corrected, but at least my point is valid that owners and prospective owners all need good DW and option weights numbers to calculate our GVW to ensure it will be less than the GVWR.

Thanks a lot….I hope to see lots of you on the road some day in one of these pretty neat road machines. 2o2

Mike    (northern Idaho)

  tymote   

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Weights and Measures
« Reply #8 on: March 02, 2010, 07:53:17 am »
Ron, if you’re reading this, the 2006 and 2007 chassis should be close - do you know what your base chassis weight is?
I only know what is stated on my sticker, and I was told by the dealer I bought mine from, the couch slide-out option weighs 400 pounds more than a non-slide-out.  I strongly advise you contact the owner of the 2006 you are considering, and have him verbally state the data on the sticker, or better yet, take a pic of it.  On my PC, that sticker is on the inside of the kitchen base cabinet door, closest to the rear of the RV.  It's a big 4 to 6" square sticker.  You can't miss it.
Ron (& Irene) Dittmer