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Author Topic: I spent the afternoon in the storage cabinet of my 2350  (Read 1649 times)
JJCruiser
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« on: July 13, 2013, 08:55:25 pm »

As I look back on the day, I spent much of the afternoon in the outside storage cabinet of my 2350.  I am posting this as others might find some of the information valuable.
The initial plan was to try to improve the hammering that we hear from the fresh water pump.  With the pump right underneath the corner bed of the 2350, it can be a little annoying at night when others are sleeping.  A while back I ran across a new pump (Flojet Sensor VSD Pump - 4.5 gpm) that claims to:

"Flojet's unique Variable Speed Drive system needs no pressure switch. Its microprocessor provides precise speed control to match the system demand. As more water is needed, the motor drives the pump for more flow. As the demand lessens, the motor slows to a super-quiet speed, yet maintains a steady pressure. The result is an unbelievably home-like flow. This smooth performance from no flow to maximum flow is sensor controlled, without any cycling - so an accumulator tank is not needed. The system is free of pulsation, water hammer and temperature swings. Amp draw reduces as flow reduces to conserve energy, ranging from less than 1 amp to a max.of 10 amps. Self priming up to 10'. Automatically adjusts to 12V or 24V input. "

The pump was rather pricey at nearly twice that of a standard pump but I thought I would give it a try.  I finally got around to it this afternoon and the installation was rather easy.  Unfortunately as I turned on the pump it was as loud as my original pump.  I thought the new pump was even more annoying due to the fact the frequency of the hammering would vary with the water flow.  I then thought that maybe some pipes were loose and were banging against each other so I removed the back corner panel in my storage compartment.  Sure enough the fresh water tubes were rattling against each other and I used some pipe insulation to correct that.  But I still had the hammering of the new pump.  I put the old pump on and the noise was improved with the pipe insulation.  Base on this, I think the folks with the accumulator approach have the right idea.  I will try to call the manufacturer next week to see what the have to say.

Well while I had the storage compartment empty I thought I would check to see why when I fill my fresh water tank, shortly after I start I would get water flowing out the input as I fill it up.   I would have to really slow the water flow down to keep water escaping which really added to the time to fill the tank.  There is a vent right next to the opening where you fill the fresh water tank but it did not seem to be doing the job.  So I opened that wall of the cabinet to see what was going on.  I am glad I did as I found that the clear tubing that goes to the vent was full of water and the clear tubing was very black on the inside.  The tube had a big loop that would collect water because both ends were higher then the loop.  There was no place for the water to escape and would in effect block the flow of air in the vent.  In addition the tube had a kink that pinched off air flow as well.  I am sure water had to collect over the winter months and freeze in this tube.  I haven't been able to determine a good reason why the loop was installed like it was, anyone have any ideas?  I went ahead and took that tube out and replaced with a new clear tube.  This time I still have a loop in the tube, but I have the loop above both of the ends so water can not collect.  Also the top of the loop is now higher then the top of the tank to minimize the likelihood that water would escape out the vent.  I am glad to get that black tube out of my fresh water system.

The big win for the afternoon is finding extra space for outside storage.  The space is 8" x 12" x 24", just enough to be of some value.  This is the space between the fresh water tank and the side wall of the rv.  I will attempt to post a couple of pictures to better show the original black tube, the extra space I am claiming for storage and the installation of the new clear tube.

Even though the new pump did not work out, I did make some progress for all the time I spent in the storage cabinet.  I hope some of you find some value in this post.

JJ

« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 09:00:05 pm by JJCruiser » Logged
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2013, 09:42:58 pm »

On my previous 2350 and current 2552, I installed an expansion tank that took care of the water pump noise--lot cheaper than replacing the pump.  I also had the water backflow and black gunk in the 2350 water fill/overflow tubes.  I replaced both tubes taking the sag out of each correcting those conditions.
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2013, 01:36:40 am »

newer 2350's don't have this problem... Was a major design change in location, location, location, as the real estate agents would say..
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2013, 06:04:40 am »

On my previous 2350 and current 2552, I installed an expansion tank that took care of the water pump noise--lot cheaper than replacing the pump.  I also had the water backflow and black gunk in the 2350 water fill/overflow tubes.  I replaced both tubes taking the sag out of each correcting those conditions.

imichael, thanks for the reply.  Can you tell me how many gallons the expansion tank is that you installed?  I am not sure if I want to give up the storage space for the tank.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 06:13:51 am by JJCruiser » Logged
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2013, 06:09:33 am »

newer 2350's don't have this problem... Was a major design change in location, location, location, as the real estate agents would say..

Denny & Barb, thanks for the post.  You have me curious on where the new location is.  Also what was now in the old location?   Did they make this change with the transition to the newer Ford chassis?  Thanks again!
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2013, 07:55:40 am »

I will take this opportunity to address a problem that is illustrated with the discussion. The vent hose that you discussed which was filled with water.

We found that the vent hose in our 2551 dipped down much as yours did before it vented next to the tank inflow valve. Because of its placement. hat vent hose will fill with water easily if there is any leakage when you add water to the tank. It if loads with water -- as ours did -- two things happen, one it can make adding water a pain, as there is no vent, in our case we had to slow the water flow down to allow the water intake to be its own vent, second if you drive with a full tank, it can act as a suction hose to pull water into the vent hose and out the side of the vehicle.

We applied two solutions: like the photo shows we changed the water hose to eliminte the dip it had, now there is a down hill run to the tank for the water intake -- had to put a device to lift he hose in the middle of the hose, something form home depot from the plumbing area not sure what it is called. Next we replaced the vent hose with a longer hose that loops over the top of the intake hose so that the vent hose does not have a dip, I also carry a small hose that i use to blow into the vent hose before and after we fill if we are not on a fully flat surface.

Now we fill the tak with as much water as will flow from the faucet.

greg and kathy matthews
2551 S
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« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2013, 10:46:31 am »

Good info    I saw this tip and was planning on doing it as part of my summer projects starting next week. I had read Ron's previous info re water pumps and was looking to upgrade or do something,, saw this tip and thought might give it a try first.  It seems you could extend the intake/outtake tubes to reduce the noise??? Not sure but could be a solution

Feedback on noisy water pumps
by Russ and Tia De Maris
In a story published a few issues ago, we posted information on how to quiet down a noisy RV water pump. Readers were quick to dip into their own experiences and shower us with advice. Here are a couple of comments that may give you further fodder for fixing your fixtures:
Alan writes: "Yes, those darn pumps can be noisy! I discovered a solution out of need. I installed a valve in order to winterize the rig myself and discovered that I did not have enough room in the truck camper space allotted. What I did was create a loop with plastic tubing at the pump entry point and another at the exit of the pump in order to get the valve to fit. It worked just great and I found that the noise was reduced almost to the point I could not hear it."
Adds reader Bruce Mitchell: "Several years ago I purchased a 5th wheel trailer. Whenever the water pump was running everything vibrated. It was so bad that it felt like you were standing on a foot massager.  I took the trailer back to the manufacturer. They did everything that you mentioned in your article, to no avail.  Out of frustration, I called SurFlow. They informed me that they had a Service Bulletin out on that very problem. They sent me a copy which I took back to the manufacturer. I had to do some talking but they finally followed SurFlow's advice and solved the problem.
"The pump was mounted on the plywood floor under the kitchen cabinets. It was mounted right next to an 8-inch square hole where the plumbing went through the floor. This was part of the problem as the hole allowed the floor to vibrate more. They moved the pump to the wall. The main issue and the subject of SurFlow's bulletin was that they recommend that no hard piping be connected directly to the water pump. They suggest at least 3 feet of soft hose between the pump and the hard piping.  On mine they put approximately 18 inches on both the intake and outlet of the pump that connected to the hard piping. That totally took away the noise and vibration. They used a clear reinforced vinyl on my rig to connect to the water pump.
"SurFlow said that they have advised manufacturers of this, but I still see most RVs have the hard piping connected directly to the pump."
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« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2013, 08:16:58 pm »

I will take this opportunity to address a problem that is illustrated with the discussion. The vent hose that you discussed which was filled with water.

We found that the vent hose in our 2551 dipped down much as yours did before it vented next to the tank inflow valve. Because of its placement. hat vent hose will fill with water easily if there is any leakage when you add water to the tank. It if loads with water -- as ours did -- two things happen, one it can make adding water a pain, as there is no vent, in our case we had to slow the water flow down to allow the water intake to be its own vent, second if you drive with a full tank, it can act as a suction hose to pull water into the vent hose and out the side of the vehicle.

We applied two solutions: like the photo shows we changed the water hose to eliminte the dip it had, now there is a down hill run to the tank for the water intake -- had to put a device to lift he hose in the middle of the hose, something form home depot from the plumbing area not sure what it is called. Next we replaced the vent hose with a longer hose that loops over the top of the intake hose so that the vent hose does not have a dip, I also carry a small hose that i use to blow into the vent hose before and after we fill if we are not on a fully flat surface.

Now we fill the tak with as much water as will flow from the faucet.

greg and kathy matthews
2551 S

Thanks for the post.  It sounds like the dip in the hose is not just an issue on some of the earlier 2350s but you had it as well on your 2551.  I am now actually looking forward to filling the tank next time - it should take much less time.  Plus now that I can see the tank, I will be able to quickly glance to see how close to full I am. 
JJ
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« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2013, 08:23:30 pm »

Good info    I saw this tip and was planning on doing it as part of my summer projects starting next week. I had read Ron's previous info re water pumps and was looking to upgrade or do something,, saw this tip and thought might give it a try first.  It seems you could extend the intake/outtake tubes to reduce the noise??? Not sure but could be a solution

Feedback on noisy water pumps
by Russ and Tia De Maris
In a story published a few issues ago, we posted information on how to quiet down a noisy RV water pump. Readers were quick to dip into their own experiences and shower us with advice. Here are a couple of comments that may give you further fodder for fixing your fixtures:
Alan writes: "Yes, those darn pumps can be noisy! I discovered a solution out of need. I installed a valve in order to winterize the rig myself and discovered that I did not have enough room in the truck camper space allotted. What I did was create a loop with plastic tubing at the pump entry point and another at the exit of the pump in order to get the valve to fit. It worked just great and I found that the noise was reduced almost to the point I could not hear it."
Adds reader Bruce Mitchell: "Several years ago I purchased a 5th wheel trailer. Whenever the water pump was running everything vibrated. It was so bad that it felt like you were standing on a foot massager.  I took the trailer back to the manufacturer. They did everything that you mentioned in your article, to no avail.  Out of frustration, I called SurFlow. They informed me that they had a Service Bulletin out on that very problem. They sent me a copy which I took back to the manufacturer. I had to do some talking but they finally followed SurFlow's advice and solved the problem.
"The pump was mounted on the plywood floor under the kitchen cabinets. It was mounted right next to an 8-inch square hole where the plumbing went through the floor. This was part of the problem as the hole allowed the floor to vibrate more. They moved the pump to the wall. The main issue and the subject of SurFlow's bulletin was that they recommend that no hard piping be connected directly to the water pump. They suggest at least 3 feet of soft hose between the pump and the hard piping.  On mine they put approximately 18 inches on both the intake and outlet of the pump that connected to the hard piping. That totally took away the noise and vibration. They used a clear reinforced vinyl on my rig to connect to the water pump.
"SurFlow said that they have advised manufacturers of this, but I still see most RVs have the hard piping connected directly to the pump."


Thanks for the post Sparky.  Please let us know how much improvement you acheive by extending the intake/outtake tubes to the pump.  I guess any home improvement store would have the fittings that you would need?
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« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2013, 08:57:42 pm »

JJ
  Very good info on the pumps   ,, question,, to get to the tank did you cut or are there some panels you can take off??,, I'm in storage and can not look at mind right now... Looking at your pics I think I can see you took them from inside the storage cabinet

Ron D had some good info on pumps also and had looked at his solution,,

question  If working on the water pump (nice area to work in hehe )  I know some people have taken the bed platform off to get to that area,, wondering if that would be advisable...

I have already prepared about 5 projects and was not going to do the water pump yet,(I have a list of things that I see like the hoses for the pumps) but may change my mind,,,

If I keep adding projects I may have to keep the Beast here all summer yikes..  I'm getting out of storage next week to do my list of projects, BH is going out of town( new grandson coming)  and knows not to be around when working and talking to myself haha
david sparks
2008 PC 2350
Houston
PS   We finally got some good rain today thank goodness been dry here for about 6 weeks.Yipeeee
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« Reply #10 on: July 14, 2013, 11:03:17 pm »

JJ
  Very good info on the pumps   ,, question,, to get to the tank did you cut or are there some panels you can take off??,, I'm in storage and can not look at mind right now... Looking at your pics I think I can see you took them from inside the storage cabinet

Ron D had some good info on pumps also and had looked at his solution,,

question  If working on the water pump (nice area to work in hehe )  I know some people have taken the bed platform off to get to that area,, wondering if that would be advisable...

I have already prepared about 5 projects and was not going to do the water pump yet,(I have a list of things that I see like the hoses for the pumps) but may change my mind,,,

If I keep adding projects I may have to keep the Beast here all summer yikes..  I'm getting out of storage next week to do my list of projects, BH is going out of town( new grandson coming)  and knows not to be around when working and talking to myself haha
david sparks
2008 PC 2350
Houston
PS   We finally got some good rain today thank goodness been dry here for about 6 weeks.Yipeeee

To get to the tank to change the vent tube, I cut the panel.  The previous owner of my 2350 had already had an opening for a tube and valve (picture below).  I believe this is to allow for winterizing the RV without having to place antifreeze in the tank.  I have not tried it yet but I believe you just place the tube in the RV antifreeze and turn the pump on to fill the pipes.  The valve did come in handy when changing the pumps out as I did not have to drain the water out between tests.  Since this opening was already there, I decided to make the opening bigger to fix the vent tube, have access to the extra storage, and to get a quick visual of the level in the fresh water tank.  If you don't want to cut into the panel, going though the corner bed platform would likely be the way to go.    Having never done that I assume it is set in place with screws??  
My pump was already exposed in the cabinet so I just accessed it from the cabinet (picture below).  I did have to temporarily move the subwoofer to remove the pump.  I also temporarily removed the one panel under the carpet to get a view of the plumbing after the pump.  After adding some insulation to keep the pipes from rattling together, I put all that back after reinstalling the pump.

I seem to keep a running list of projects for my rv as well.  I have made some good progress this summer with all the suspension improvements I installed (front and rear sway bars, track bar and SafeTplus steering damper).  I also added a Scan Gauge II, tire monitoring system, indoor/outdoor thermometer for the cab and additional 12 volt outlets in the front.  Earlier in the year I added a captain's chair behind the front passenger seat and enlarged the table for the couch dinette.  It is a good thing that I kind of like doing these projects.  My list is getting shorter!  

Best of luck on your projects next week and a big congratulations on having a new grandson on the way!

JJ
« Last Edit: July 14, 2013, 11:12:09 pm by JJCruiser » Logged
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« Reply #11 on: July 14, 2013, 11:20:12 pm »

You asked what size accumulator tank I used and where I put it.  I can't remember the size, but it was the largest of the 2 that Home Depot sells.  I took out the bass speaker under the bed, built a cradle and strapped the tank in.  The speaker was too loud when one person was listening to surround sound and the other was in bed, so it wasn't missed.  Someone else asked about access to the pump--the bed board on my PC was cut in half--the head board piece was screwed down, the foot board piece was not so it was easy to gain access.  The space on my current 2552 was more limited, so I had to use the smaller tank.  Both tanks significantly reduced the pump noise and run time.  Installation was simple and inexpensive--two things I like.
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« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2013, 08:16:58 am »

You asked what size accumulator tank I used and where I put it.  I can't remember the size, but it was the largest of the 2 that Home Depot sells.  I took out the bass speaker under the bed, built a cradle and strapped the tank in.  The speaker was too loud when one person was listening to surround sound and the other was in bed, so it wasn't missed.  Someone else asked about access to the pump--the bed board on my PC was cut in half--the head board piece was screwed down, the foot board piece was not so it was easy to gain access.  The space on my current 2552 was more limited, so I had to use the smaller tank.  Both tanks significantly reduced the pump noise and run time.  Installation was simple and inexpensive--two things I like.

Thanks for the additional information!
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« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2013, 08:21:54 am »

newer 2350's don't have this problem... Was a major design change in location, location, location, as the real estate agents would say..

Sparky - I just wanted to make sure you saw Denny & Barb's post from above.  With your rv being newer then mine, your pump and water tank may be in a different location then mine.  Removing the panel under the corner bed should give you a clear view of where everything is and prevent you from cutting something that you shouldn't.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 07:54:18 pm by JJCruiser » Logged
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« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2013, 09:26:36 am »

JJ
   No I think our 08 is the same set up,,,, think I will take off the bed frame and give it a look reset it to be able to get off easier and  to work on...   also I think to get to the  vent tube I'm going to have to do what you did do some cutting however may save that for later,,, more interested in the pump right now.. I did use the tip of having a fill hose,, took a hose, cut it down to two feet and use it to fill and my tank fills  up great,,,

   BTW,,, you said you had the  Scan Gauge II put in did you do it on have it installed,,,, how about some more info  cost etc.....  also you mentioned indoor/outdoor thermometer   did you do like Ron D suggested???  I did that keep the one unit in the storage compartment still gives a pretty good ideal on the temp...  would love to have the one on the mirror but can not see paying the money
David Sparks
2008 PC 2350
Houston
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