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Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Joseph on July 11, 2018, 05:12:49 pm

Title: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 11, 2018, 05:12:49 pm
I noticed the given HP ratings for the V 10 have gone way down. The 3 valve went from 362 to 320 and the 2 valve thatís in our rigs has gone down to 288. I canít find anything to give reason as to why itís apparently been detuned.  Ford has V6 options with higher HP and torque ratings.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 12, 2018, 05:14:49 am
That is interesting, I found the specs here - https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/chassis-cab/models/f450-xl/ 

I noted that the HP specs for the V10 are at 4000 RPM... and it doesnt say PEAK torque... I wonder if they are de-rating it for some reason.

Note the RPM for earlier V10 ratings -

Horsepower*:
1999 MY                305HP @ 4,250 RPM
2000 - 2004 MY     310 HP @ 4,250 RPM
2005 - 2010 MY     362 HP @ 4,750 RPM

source - http://www.dieselhub.com/specs/ford-6.8-triton-v10.html


Found some for newer engines.. 

2018          288hp @4,000 rpm. 424 lb-ft torque @ 3,000rpm
2016          385hp @ 5'500 rpm. 405 lb-ft torque @ 4,500rpm

Source -   https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1455665-2017-v10-lower-hp.html


I think this may sum it up - (sourced from above link)

Quote
Try and find out what rpm they are taking the hp rating at and compare it to the rpm that it was rated at before, it could be like the lower numbers the 6.2 has when you go to a F350, same tune same motor but they pull the numbers at a lower rpm so it looks derated to please the government.


Looks like that may be the case...

Quote
According to the articles I've read on the subject the engine is essentially the same. However to meet the newest emission standards it is certified at a lower RPM than previous years. Given that the newest models also include a 6 speed transmission the performance is equal to or slightly better than the pervious model years.

Source - http://www.irv2.com/forums/f23/new-2017-f53-v10-hp-314979.html

Looks like its just a numbers game, and not a 'true' reduction of engine performance.
 
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 12, 2018, 06:50:31 am
I wonder if certain state laws are changing, charging manufactures more to sell their vehicles rated over a certain horse power, and Ford is playing with their specifications to work around the changes.

Or it could be that Ford had to (or wanted to) re-rate horse power closer to realistic RPM usage.  I had always wondered about posted specs on horse power at such high RPMs.

I would be surprised that Ford actually de-tuned the V10.....but you never know.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: ExStarlifter on July 12, 2018, 07:23:43 am
We've never had an RV with anything but the Ford V10 (ok we did have two diesels - that's another story though).  Anyway, I was extremely impressed with the new 6 speed transmission/V10 combination on the drive home last month (E-450).  If it's de-rated, I never noticed and we drove 600+ miles up and down hills and at around 70 mph the whole way.  In fact, I was very impressed with the improved drive-abilty with the 6 speed combination.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 12, 2018, 07:35:26 am
I hardly think it is state law on HP rating, its just a case of emissions testing and passing.

As the second quote in my post above said,
Quote
However to meet the newest emission standards it is certified at a lower RPM than previous years.

In other words, the engine will pass emissions at 4000 RPM, where it is producing 288HP. If you rev it up to 4750, you WILL get ~360HP, but it will NOT be within emissions requirements at that RPM. So, they de-rate the motor to 288, and get it certified at that HP by federal emissions testing. 

The 'penalty' they pay for that is looking weak when people are comparing HP ratings. If you dont understand the emissions reason for the de-rating, it sure looks like they have lost a bunch of power. They have not, but cannot claim the peak horsepower because it falls out of emissions compliance at that level.

Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 12, 2018, 09:30:06 am
The more I search the more I agree, itís a numbers game most likely for emissions .  Most likely for states like Ca and Or.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 12, 2018, 09:37:15 am

 I had always wondered about posted specs on horse power at such high RPMs.


The posted specs on a motor are usually peak values - peak torque, peak HP etc. The graph below shows a typical horsepower/torque plotting:

(https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-a69447cd5dc3409a047fcc11d1eb950c)

Note the peak of each curve. This signifies the maximum value reached. (Apologies to the engineers out there for the following..)

To simplify, Torque is the amount of force an engine can give, horsepower is how quick it can deliver that amount of force. (HP = Torque x RPM ų 5252)  Thats why even though torque has dropped off, the faster RPM causes the engine to be doing more work. BUT... even spinning it faster wont make up for the torque loss at higher RPM, so HP drops off.

GEEK WARNING! Really boring stuff follows.

For maximum performance in acceleration, one wants to have each gear begin just below the torque peak, and end just after the HP peak. So, in our graph example above, if you shift into 2nd gear at ~3500 RPM, and keep it in until ~5500 RPM, you will be in the motors powerband. Ideally, shifting to 3rd would drop it to 3500 RPM again, go to 5500, then 4th drops it to 3500 etc. This gives maximum acceleration.

Ever see people race and they 'wind out' the engine in each gear? They are slower than the racer that shifts to stay in the powerband. By revving the motor to 6500 RPM they are getting LESS force than if they had shifted early. (Also, when they do shift up, and the transmission is properly set up for the powerband, they will now be above the torque curve.)

Sometimes stock transmission gears make you rev out of the powerband. In Air Cooled VW's, the transmission is set to account for heavy loads, and for highway cruising. So there is a big 'gap' between 2-3 gear in the ratio. This allows heavy loads to be pulled, but also allows for lower RPM at highway speeds. But in terms of our 'perfect' racing transmission, the gears are spaced wrong. Similar to a 5 speed transmission missing 4th.. the stock gears would be 1st, 2nd, 3rd and a 1/2, and 5th.  So when shifting up, one must rev 2nd above the HP peak so when 3rd is selected it is closer to the torque peak. Racers change the 3rd and 4th gear ratios to make them 'even' again, to maximize acceleration, and put up with the high RPM's on the freeway.

So, hope this gives a little clarity as to why they rate the HP at such a 'high' RPM, even when our use of the motor we rarely get that high.

Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 12, 2018, 09:50:09 am
Volk, which is how 5 star tuning plays with shifting patterns and gives better performance with no changes to hp or torque .
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 12, 2018, 10:20:07 am
Volk, which is how 5 star tuning plays with shifting patterns and gives better performance with no changes to hp or torque .

Thanks!  I was unaware of this. (link for the V10 kit - https://5startuning.com/product/7015fs/ )

Looks like its well worth $500. Driving back from our April festival I was VERY frustrated with the downshifting action while on cruise control, I had to turn it off to stop the (IMO) unnecessary downshifts...that it would hang on to for WAY too long. With only a 3000# trailer.   pyho
 
*(lemmie look at this closer...)


Just scrolled down and read the tech info for this... looks like a no-brainer. Thats a helluva lot of gain for only $500. I can think of no other modification in that price range that would deliver such results. AND you can return to stock settings. I cant see a downside!

....and it DOES increase HP and Torque with no hardware changes. 42HP and 75 (!) Ft/lbs at 3500 RPM. Scroll down to the black and grey chart with the yellow header.

Thanks again Joseph!   tymote
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 12, 2018, 12:56:15 pm
Volt, I didnít see the hp and torque data. I assumed it worked solely on the shift points. I did a lot of review reading and cant say I ever found a true negative. I read some who hoped for more but none that said they made a mistake. Iíve been considering adding it myself but havenít pulled the trigger.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 12, 2018, 01:15:16 pm
Volk, I havenít found the hp and torq data for the 2 valve, only the 3 valve.  Iím sure the data isnít there  or a call would answer those questions.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 12, 2018, 02:04:49 pm
Volk, I havenít found the hp and torq data for the 2 valve, only the 3 valve.  Iím sure the data isnít there  or a call would answer those questions.

Ok...found this - accuracy unknown -

""The Super Duty trucks got the 3V in mid-2005. The E-vans never got the 3V, those are all 2V.""

source - https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8-engines/437079-v-10-what-best-year-engine.html

And this -



2-valve
Vehicle Name       Production Years                  Engine Output                                          Notes
Ford E250-E450
F53 Motorhome           1997Ė2004                    305 hp (227 kW) 420 lb⋅ft (569 N⋅m)         ratings for 2000 and later model years

Ford F250-F550
F53 Motorhome            1997Ė2004                    310 hp (231 kW) 425 lb⋅ft (576 N⋅m)         ratings for 2000 and later model years

Ford Excursion             2000-2005                    310 hp (231 kW) 425 lb⋅ft (576 N⋅m)          ratings for 2000 and later model years

Ford E350 & E450   2014- Current                   305 hp (227 kW) 420 lb⋅ft (569 N⋅m)          E350 and E450 available only as chassis cab and cutaway after 2015

But no data for 2005-2014?  Next chart down lists

F450-F550 Chassis Cab   2005Ėpresent             288 hp (215 kW) 424 lb⋅ft (575 N⋅m)   THERE is our 288HP....  (nod)

source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine#6.8_L_V10


http://www.blueovaltrucks.com/tech-articles/gas-engines/ford-6-8l-v-10-engine/  lists similar charts.  :beg 


A little good news for me, a 2006 owner..

Quote
Yes, you are correct. Had a lengthy conversation with my Ford Dealership. Apparently there is a "middle" generation of the V10's. The early engines had the 2 problems with spitting out spark plugs and snapping exhaust manifold studs. There was a revision of the heads that gave more thread contact area for the spark plugs. He was not sure when that occurred, but thought it was around late 2003. Those heads appear to be most sought after. Then came the 3 valve and that brought about new and improved problems. Spark plugs actual snap off in heads. He told me a 2005 V10 prior to the 3 valve heads were the ideal engines.

and maybe on making a positive ID.. 

Quote
An easy way to tell is the 2-valve has plastic valve covers, the 3-valve has aluminum valve covers.

Both of the above sourced from https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1168393-3-valve-v10-or-2-valve.html




So, similar performance. Gain is ~50HP for the 3 valve, but still not sure which we have in a 2005-2013 E350/450   (WH)

 I am really gonna think hard on that 5star kit. There's the extra power...    tymote  again for letting us know it exists!
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: CalCruiser on July 12, 2018, 09:26:51 pm
To the best of my knowledge  3 valve heads were never used on the E-series due to space constraints and related heat issues.

Think of horsepower as what gets the wheels up to speed and torque as what maintains it.
I can't find a dyno chart for the 20 valve  engine, but according to this guy peak torque is from 2100-4000 rpm. If his data is good revving the V10 beyond  3800 rpm is a waste,  regardless of  the total number of forward gears or ratios , and cruising at 2100 rpm should give the best fuel efficiency because the engine is already producing it's maximum  torque without having to breathe heavily.

  #7 
HillHound's AvatarHillHound , 09-28-2002 12:11 AM
HP/Torque Curve graphs for V10??
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-Sep-02 AT 01:14 AM (EST)]In case anyone's interested-I finally found the stock Ford engine torque curves I was looking for.

I picked up at a local Ford dealer a 53 page "2002 Commercial Vehicles" brochure and it has torque/hp curve graphs for ever Ford truck engine from a 4.2L V6 right up to the 7.2L Cat! Very nice and a ton of interesting info to pour over. Of course it's all stock info at flywheel output I guess. Some points about the V10:

The hp & torque curves cross @ about 3800 rpms and at that point the engine is at 300hp & 400lb-ft.

My truck with auto trans. & 3.73 gears cruises interstate speed at 70mph at 2000rpms. At 2000 rpms the 6.8L is at about 260hp and 380lb-ft.

It makes at least 400lb-ft of torque from about 2100rpms to 4000rps after which it drops off to about 325lb-ft at 5000rpms. The curve is about as flat as it gets for a modern gas engine.

 
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 13, 2018, 08:43:36 am
(cheer) heartshower   WoooooooHooooo!   heartshower (cheer)

Got one coming. They had one in stock that was open box, so $100 off.

I am sincerely hoping that this is the best $400 I have put into the coach. Will update as things get tested!

 2o2  I am PUMPED!!   (exactly)   

Thanks Joseph!   :)(:
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 13, 2018, 02:46:20 pm
Volk,  I feel a bit of more power envy building!  I look forward to reading your review.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 16, 2018, 11:13:53 am
'Animal Torture'  : 

Mrs V just messaged me to say the tuner was waiting for me at home, knowing darn well I am here for hours more.
  pyho


Its here. Cant wait!!  Will post when I get home. Glad she told me!   (cheer) heartshower
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 16, 2018, 05:42:04 pm
Volk, I have no doubt you'll wait till this weekend to give it a look see.......LOL... :)(:
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 17, 2018, 06:17:12 pm
Volk, I have no doubt you'll wait till this weekend to give it a look see.......LOL... :)(:

Looks like the case. Visiting the mouse house with my grandson,  :-D  beback friday PM.

I have checked it all out, a very complete package.  Looking forward to using it.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: KB9OMH on July 17, 2018, 09:06:52 pm
Volkemon, Been using the five star since 2013, when I got my 3100, love it, didn't really see any increase of HP or Torque, but the transmission really works great, going up a rise in the road first goes to 2500 rpm then next it goes to 3200 rpm, if it a bad incline it goes to 3800 rpm. but most the time it will only drop to 2500 rpms. Hope you enjoy your new toy.

Jim
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 18, 2018, 06:16:37 am
 :beg  I certainly hope I can feel SOME difference... their dyno test shows the torque peak moved down from 3900 to 3500 RPM, but at the lowest RPM shown (2800) it still shows a 20% increase in torque.

Maybe I will do a few 'timed runs' before installing.  'Seat of the pants' dyno's are notoriously inaccurate.  :lol Especially when gains are expected.

Not to mention grandson will have fun riding along on the 0-60 runs.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 18, 2018, 09:06:28 am
kb90 ... so on steep inclines yours never goes to 4500-5000 rpms? Does it still maintain your speed the same as before the 5 star?  That would indicate to me an increase in torque. It really interests me but I allowed myself to buy into the KONI shocks dream and now kick myself for wasting money something that I found to be no better than shocks costing hundreds less.  Probably a good thing, keeps me trigger shy
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 18, 2018, 12:48:48 pm
I called 5 star and due to the laws in Ca they can't ship it here.  Go figure...
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Cropduster on July 18, 2018, 06:39:54 pm
Shipping to California: 

Have the part sent to your brother/cousin/friend who lives in a state with rational vehicle regulations.  Have that individual send it along to you.

BTW: The business where I work has had a major influx of applicants who can't wait to leave California.  Might be time for you to reconsider your residential options.  NB. Just my opinion, your mileage may vary.

Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 19, 2018, 09:10:33 am
Crop duster, only two things keep us in Ca, most importantly is our family. Most of the family would like to move as well but they have successful companies, careers etc. itís just not simple to do.   Second is the climate, I have yet to find a place we like better in terms of climate. But the big one is family. I hate Ca politics with a passion, when Reagan gave amnesty (he later regretted) it wasnít long before the voting districts were set to where this state will never have a chance of being anything but controlled by liberals. If this country implodes it will be seen here first. Damn shame.   Your right though and we often talk about moving to a state with some basic freedoms.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Cropduster on July 19, 2018, 11:10:31 am
Joseph:: Sounds like you are miking the best of the situation.  Possibly the experience in your state will convince others to avoid a similar fate in their own state.  Not far from where we live is a family which pulled up everyone and left California, the kids, their spouses and kids, grandparents, ...  They all simultaneously decided 'enough'.

Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 20, 2018, 07:15:01 am
Not intending to turn this thread into a political debate, but Irene and I watch the news a lot, and we feel the coastal half of California, especially San Francisco, have lost their minds.  It's been going on for a long time and getting worse every year.  But they stepped up the madness since the last presidential election.  I understand how you feel.  If we lived there, we too would try our best to get out of Dodge.

We live 25 miles west of Chicago and have our own problems, and they are not so different.  If not for our family, our church, and our dream home, we would be moving out of Illinois.  If we could move, we still don't know where we would run to.  I fear we'd might place ourselves into a worse situation.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 20, 2018, 09:12:11 am
Ron, I couldnít agree more and politics aside with places like San Fran how can anyone think that allowing people who are here illegally be allowed to vote.  The state has been letting it go for some time but now they are officially allowing it starting with school districts. Thatís just the tip of whatís happening out here but I agree I donít want this to go too political.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: KB9OMH on July 20, 2018, 11:38:49 am
Joseph, Yes it will still go that high on a very steep hill or mountain. I run with the cruse control on all the time and if arounf a lot of stop and go I leave it out of tow mode. It will hold your speed very well. Did not look to see if you have a newer unit with the 6 speed trans, mine has the 5 speed trans. Hope this answer your question

Jim
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 20, 2018, 01:34:46 pm
Kb90, it does, Thank you. 
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 24, 2018, 04:20:37 am
Sorry for no update, for some reason my 7YO grandson was more interested in another day at Disney than helping grandpa work on the camper...  (exactly)

Wait until HE gets wheels... see who wants to hang in grandpa's garage then...  :lol

Asking around to see if there is a rear wheel dyno that will handle the 2350. I would like some hard data to see if my $400 was well spent.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Joseph on July 24, 2018, 09:01:04 am
Volk, everything Iíve read and Iíve been reading a bunch says the biggest gain is in the sifting points. IE when you crest a hill and it takes forever to shift up and holding shift points going up. Iíve yet to read of anyone being disappointed who have installed it on the V10. I say that because they make them for a lot of various gas engines as well as diesel but I only focused on the V10.
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: Volkemon on July 24, 2018, 10:49:50 am
Refining the shift points may be worth it. Whoever thought that 2 gear downshifts were a good idea...  pyho
Title: Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
Post by: CalCruiser on July 24, 2018, 08:15:37 pm
Have any of you guy used this on a motorhome ? https://www.knfilters.com/mobile/mProduct.aspx?prod=77-2570KTK#reviews

http://rvbasics.com/rv-press-release/K&N-ford-air-filters.html

I just got back from a week in the Sierras .   Climbing the 80 towards Truckee dropped down to 2nd gear for  brief stretches to maintain 51mph at around 3760 rpm, which is just under where peak hp and torque cross before falling off a cliff. The transmission liked to hold 3rd until around 2750. Watching the ScanGauge  II average  mpg from Grass Valley to Zephyr Cove was 7.8,  down from 10.8 in the flatlands, and  TFT never exceeded 206 F.


I looked  at the Banks Stinger  kit , which seems crazy $$$$, on top of  our wonderful California state CARB issues.  That got me thinking maybe the  K&N CAI and a larger diameter cat back with a Magnaflow might be worth doing.  The big Ford is already so loud in 2nd gear that  it canít get much worse LOL, and it seems  lame that they use the same airbox on the  5.4 and 6.8.

Volk- Just  find the biggest hill in Florida  and use the old  seat of the pants dyno :-D