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Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Pappy T on December 18, 2018, 09:00:28 pm

Title: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Pappy T on December 18, 2018, 09:00:28 pm
Interesting news, wonder if any rv builders will be using this !
https://www.worktruckonline.com/313956/lightning-systems-debuts-all-electric-ford-e-450-cutaway 
 Pappy T
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 18, 2018, 09:35:30 pm
With a range of 110 miles, it would take forever for us to cross the Great Planes.

I wonder if running the generator while driving will maintain the EV system.  If that works, there will be fuel consumption, but so little by comparison to a V10.

If the generator burns one gallon of fuel per hour.  At 60 miles per hour, that comes to 60 miles to the gallon.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: donc13 on December 19, 2018, 07:08:51 am
With a range of 110 miles, it would take forever for us to cross the Great Planes.

I wonder if running the generator while driving will maintain the EV system.  If that works, there will be fuel consumption, but so little by comparison to a V10.

If the generator burns one gallon of fuel per hour.  At 60 miles per hour, that comes to 60 miles to the gallon.

Well, let's see, the bus on the story has a 220kw motor, our PC has  4kw generator.. So you'd need 220/4 generators to get the same power.... That's 55 generators each using 1 gallon per hour.... Or 55 gallons per hour.

1.09 miles per gallon.

And that presumes you can tuck those 55 generators somewhere and that they don't weigh anything.

:-)


Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Ron Dittmer on December 19, 2018, 09:55:08 am
If that is the case, how could you plug the vehicle into an outlet at home and get any kind of useful charge? 
Two or more days to charge the vehicle?   (WH)
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: fandj on December 19, 2018, 11:24:07 am
A 4000 watt generator puts out about 5 hp.  Here is an example of a 6 hp RV.  I suspect it would take quite awhile to cross the Plains in a Conestoga Cruiser. ;)



Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: donc13 on December 19, 2018, 02:23:39 pm
If that is the case, how could you plug the vehicle into an outlet at home and get any kind of useful charge? 
Two or more days to charge the vehicle?   (WH)

You can't plug it into a standard 120v/15a outlet at home.   You need a 220 @50 or more amps per phase for an electric car, and typically 480v @50 or more per phase (3 phase) for larger vehicles.

Power is power, doesn't matter if it comes from real horses, a diesel-electric setup (a railroad locomotive), a battery, electric utility, whatever.  A battery is simply a storage container for electricity.  It takes a lot of power to fill a battery with enough capacity to drive a 12 ton vehicle 110 miles.

Yes, it does take a long time + high voltage (power) to charge an electric car.  Just like you can't use a few D cell batteries to run a golf cart, you can't use a 4kw generator to run a motorhome down a highway.

Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Pappy T on December 19, 2018, 04:35:31 pm
Sssoooo , I'm guessing it won't happen anytime soon . Great calculations and comparisons guy's , knowing all that now I know I wouldn't get one even if it was free   :)
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Dynadave on December 19, 2018, 06:23:46 pm
The world and technology is changing at such a fast rate that I donít think most of us can comprehend it. How many of us saw the capability of modern computers coming, or the change in communication systems, the internet, medical marvels. Driverless vehicles are coming and they will be electric or at least hybrid, the only question is when. It may happen faster than we think it will. Maybe virtual rving is next, sure hope not, itís not what I want but the next generation may think itís great! Who knows......????
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: CalCruiser on December 19, 2018, 07:57:07 pm
With a range of 110 miles, it would take forever for us to cross the Great Planes.

And when you get  to the Rockies find a tow truck to haul it up the mountain  (exactly)
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: donc13 on December 19, 2018, 08:32:03 pm
The world and technology is changing at such a fast rate that I donít think most of us can comprehend it. How many of us saw the capability of modern computers coming, or the change in communication systems, the internet, medical marvels. Driverless vehicles are coming and they will be electric or at least hybrid, the only question is when. It may happen faster than we think it will. Maybe virtual rving is next, sure hope not, itís not what I want but the next generation may think itís great! Who knows......????

In the case of electric vehicles, it's not technology, but physics that gets us to 100% electric vehicles.   No matter how you slice it, simple physics says that to move X amount of mass Y distance, Z amount of energy is required.   That is in a frictionless environment.   Gravity, wind drag, mechanical friction are additional energy usage "add-ons".

The electrical power required to charge batteries to replace fossil fueled does not exist in our current electrical grids.

In reality, that means we do not have enough electrical generating capacity to replace the energy released by gasoline and diesel fueled engines to move vehicles.

And we won't have it anytime soon.

Physics.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 04, 2019, 03:31:54 pm
The new house we are planning will be "Net Zero", meaning it uses no more power (of any kind) than it consumes over a 12 month time period.  This is done by building a tight, well insulated envelope, using passive solar heat gain in winter and energy efficient appliances.  And then sticking a bunch of PV panels on the roof.  The PV array is sized to produce enough to charge an electric vehicle as well as power the house.

@Donc13 is largely correct, the current grid as built and existing today is not capable of powering an instant switch over to electric vehicles.  However, for the average commuter with a PV array on the roof, the grid is not as important and the generating capacity is distributed rather than concentrated as it is now with single large power plants.  Distributed power generation is the future and the power companies are going to fight it tooth and nail.  But it is coming whether they like it or not.  And how much safer is a power grid that relies on 100's of thousands of small generators than one that relies on a few giant power plants that are vulnerable to all manner of things?

An all electric RV is nothing more than a demonstration vehicle right now.  Simply showing it can be done, sort of.  However, numerous (and not wacky) estimates put electric vehicles at 30 to 50% of all new cars purchased within 10 years.  Ford has already announced that an all electric F-150 will show in 2020 or 2021. 

This Winnebago all electric demonstrator (https://electrek.co/2018/05/02/winnebago-all-electric-rv-platform-electric-motorhome/) is just a demonstrator, but it shows people are putting real money into a shift over the next 20 years from gas / diesel to electric.

And here is one that is nearly ready to go: Iridium EV (https://www.curbed.com/2018/12/14/18141140/electric-rv-for-sale-camper-motorhome-iridium)  Not likely to be popular in the US market but if your RV life style is a less than 100 mile trip to a weekend campground this will work and will be available, (they say), in 2019.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: 2 Frazzled on February 04, 2019, 05:44:36 pm
JTrax, love it! My hope is that once we settle down, our home will be net zero.

Comment on the power grid: we toured Bonneville Dam years back. It is on the Columbia River near Portland, OR. They have three or four massive generators in there churning out hydro power from the river but only one was "on line" and running while we were there. Our guide told us it was because there was no need for the electricity... this was during the massive brown outs and rolling black outs in California. It's possible Bonneville's grid had no way to connect to California's grid. It's possible power is regulated to control the price. It's possible I'm easily confused, but it made no sense to me. It made me wonder what the difference is between the green power we are capable of producing and what is actually produced.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: CalCruiser on February 04, 2019, 07:05:33 pm
2 Frazzled- It's because the rolling blackouts in CA  were an illusion that was part of  a fraudulent scheme created by Enron. California had recently deregulated  electricity and created an ISO (independent system operator) to manage it. Enron rigged the software and even manipulated it to show some supply as load, basically running the meters in reverse to jack up the spot price based on the  demand critically exceeding available  supply. This forced the state into long term contracts at much higher rates. It resulted in a recall election with Arnold Schwareznegger becoming Governor of CA. His administration sued to recover the billions of  dollars stolen from the state treasury, which had to step in when  Bank of America refused to lend more money to buy electricity. The FERC ruled against CA, Enron filed for bankruptcy protection, and Ken Lay conveniently departed to the great beyond.

Sorry for the thread hijack.
Carry on.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 04, 2019, 11:28:56 pm
I'm been to Bonneville numerous times, it's one of my favorite stops.  There are a number of factors that determine how many turbines are running.  One is that the amount of water they dump is regulated to keep the fish happy, regardless of whether they need the power.  The other is the massive wind farm just east of them.  As I understand it the grid (not sure if that is Bonneville, the state, the feds or somebody else) is contractually obligated to accept all the power the wind farm makes.  So at times Bonneville has to idle turbines to keep the wind farm owners happy.

There was a big stink about this a couple years ago.  Bonneville was required to dump water to keep the flow high for the fish but they could not put power into the grid because the wind farm was producing all that was needed.  They shut off the wind farm, because they feared the endangered species act more than the wind farm.  Wind farm owners sued and it got ugly.  They eventually worked it but I never heard how.

This just points out that we have an aging, antiquated and disconnected grid run by a mix of for profit power companies, state political agendas, and federal regulators.  One the big issues with renewable power is that the grid is not capable of the flexibility required.  Estimates are that we can get to 15% maybe 20% renewable but that is it.  After that we don't have the ability to ramp up or down fast enough when wind or solar come on or off.  This is especially evident at sunset.  Daytime is the biggest time of use for electricity, followed by the dinner hour right after sunset.  With solar on all day things are great, but just as solar goes out for the night there is a big spike in use as everyone gets home, fires up the TV, computer, lights and makes dinner.  The power companies have about 20 minutes from solar going down to bring enough fossil fuel plants on line to handle the load. 

The only fix is a combination of distributed storage and a more flexible grid.  Distributed storage is great if you are in California they will practically pay for it right now.  The state badly needs more buffering capacity and they have decided on site batteries are the way to go.  I'm not so sure as the cost of on site battery storage is *I think) still prohibitive.  But if the state is paying?  Well why not.

https://news.energysage.com/california-energy-storage-incentives-sgip-explained/
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Volkemon on February 05, 2019, 09:45:20 am
If that is the case, how could you plug the vehicle into an outlet at home and get any kind of useful charge? 
Two or more days to charge the vehicle?   (WH)

All due respect to Don13, but he is a little off on specs. Level 1 and 2 systems (120V and 240V) are installed in residential settings, and level 3 (3 phase) in commercial.

Level 1 Charging
This is the slow charging route that uses a standard 120 volt power outlet. Electric cars sometimes have the option of designating either a flow rate of 8 or 12 amps. If you are plugging into a dedicated electrical circuit then you should be able to charge at the 12 amp rate. Best case scenario is you might be able to squeeze five miles of range per hour of charge on a 12 amp load. If pulling 8 amps you can plan on three miles per hour. The difference between 8 and 12 amps is the higher amperage rating will charge your car faster. Eight amps is like a trickle charger and it will take 12 hours to charge a Volt and probably 24 hours to charge electric vehicles with a larger battery. A Tesla Model S might take a few days to charge this way.

Level 2 Charging
This is what you really want to install. Level 2 stations will typically allow your car to fully charge your car in 4 hours. While a Level 1 connector feeds 120 volts into your car, a Level 2 station can feed 240 volts that will charge your car in half the time of a Level 1. Not all Level 2 charge stations are created equal. Cars like the Volt, some Leafs, and the Chevrolet Spark EV contain a lower capacity charger and can only process 3.6 kWh into the car. A real bummer, because commercial charge stations and many home units can supply 7.2 kWh. My Volt will charge and deliver 38 miles of range in about 4 hours using the 3.6 kWh charging system. My Honda Fit EV will fully charge with 80 miles of range in about 3 hours using a 7.2 kWh charging system.

Level 3 Charging Stations
You can't install one of these in the home as they require three phase power. These chargers pump a lot of electricity into your car to quickly charge your car. While a Level 2 station can feed about 7000 watts into your car, this monster feeds more than 25,000 watts. We are talking 80% capacity in about a half hour. The problem with this technology, is according to reports, may shorten the long term life of the battery. Every so often it is ok, but if you want your battery to last you do not want to be doing this daily. Not all cars are compatible with this technology either. Tesla has a different protocol than other auto manufacturers and is not compatible with DC fast chargers other than those at Tesla owned stations. For home use focus on Level 1 and 2.

Above pulled from here - http://www.evelectricity.com/charging/   I tried to select relevant parts for those who only read it here.


And about the 100 mile range... its not really made for campers.  roflol This tech is primarily for 'last mile' delivery trucks, doing urban deliveries,  where 100 miles a day might be just fine. The lack of tailpipe emissions in that environment is very desirable.

Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: donc13 on February 06, 2019, 07:43:34 pm
Ok, yes, I said, "can't" in relation to a standard 120v 15a outlet.    I should have said, "impractical"... my bad.



Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Volkemon on February 07, 2019, 06:40:41 am
Ok, yes, I said, "can't" in relation to a standard 120v 15a outlet.    I should have said, "impractical"... my bad.

I used to share the same thought, but time is on our side. My commute is ~60 miles a day. Lets say I get an electric vehicle to do it in. Whats my charge time needed if I only have a 15A 120V socket available? ?

""Electric cars sometimes have the option of designating either a flow rate of 8 or 12 amps. If you are plugging into a dedicated electrical circuit then you should be able to charge at the 12 amp rate. Best case scenario is you might be able to squeeze five miles of range per hour of charge on a 12 amp load.""

So... if I get home at 4 and plug my car in, then unplug at 6 am to leave, that gives me 14 hrs. 14 hrs x 5(miles per hour of charge ) = 70 miles of range.

Yes, this is all 'on paper', and real world will undoubtedly be different, usually less, right?  :lol   But if you have an employer that supplies a 15A outlet, and you can get charge all day (I do :) ) , there is another facet. IF the Electric car was only a commuter car, with our TDI as the 'road tripper', it would be practical. If I only had a 20 mile commute, like I did until 2014, even more so.

Just like the electric E450 - Great for last mile work, and local trips, but not so good for roadtrips.

My neighbor installed a 8KW solar array on his house that backfeeds into the grid. (He is HOPING for a battery bank someday....but $$$$) It is supplying all the power for his Nissan Leaf on average, with his driving around 75 miles a day. He was using a level 2 , 240V outlet.  Using his energy monitor attached to the charger on the leaf, He has found a net gain when we have many sunny days in a row, and net loss during overcast weather, or when he adds that extra trip to orlando. He is on year two doing it, and we have been watching with interest.  We have a VERY good area to put up a 8KW or even more. And we ARE the sunshine state...  2o2
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 07, 2019, 03:00:57 pm
I think we all need to keep in mind that electric vehicles are at about the same place internal combustion ones were prior to the Model T.  In many respects horses were cheaper, easier, more reliable and had a far more extensive support structure.  But that changed.  And this situation will change as well.  Electric is the future but internal combustion is not necessarily ever going to go away.

And everything electric on the road or on the drawing board today is to some degree experimental and proof of concept.  But the snowball has started down the hill and nothing is going to stop it.

For commuters think a parking area at work covered with solar panels and charging stations at every parking spot.  Unlikely to get to full charge but with an 8 hour work day, more than enough to get back home where you can charge at home overnight.

I suspect RV's will hold onto internal combustion for a long time but with improvements in PV panels and battery technology I suspect electric will be practical there at some point.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Volkemon on February 09, 2019, 07:50:44 am

I suspect RV's will hold onto internal combustion for a long time but with improvements in PV panels and battery technology I suspect electric will be practical there at some point.

Agreed!  Electric is certainly the way to go.. they beat ICE cars into production by decades. People knew electric was viable for transportation in the early 1800's.

When they get a battery worked out that gets even close to gasolines energy density, they will be the only option. But thats the big problem...

Lead acid batteries -  33Ė42 Wh/kg

Gasoline -  13,000  Wh/kg

Lithium batteries - 100Ė265 Wh/‎kg‎

So pound-for-pound, gasoline has 50 times more energy to be used than the best lithium, and 300+ times than lead acid. And 'recharges' in minutes. Hard act to follow.   :beg  We have lifestyles arranged around this easy energy.

Here is hoping there is a battery on the way that can overcome that deficit.  :)(: 
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 09, 2019, 11:40:39 am
And yet a good lithium battery is close (almost) to the range of an ICE vehicle.  If we double or triple the density of the battery (which does not seem unrealistic) we can easily match or exceed the range of an internal combustion vehicle.  I'm not sure why the discrepancy is so big in your numbers.  Not disputing them, just puzzled. 

Maybe the battery weighs more than the fuel tank but the electric motors weigh less than the ICE?  So the combo of drive system + fuel is closer to being equal?
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: donc13 on February 10, 2019, 09:56:01 pm
And yet a good lithium battery is close (almost) to the range of an ICE vehicle.  If we double or triple the density of the battery (which does not seem unrealistic) we can easily match or exceed the range of an internal combustion vehicle.  I'm not sure why the discrepancy is so big in your numbers.  Not disputing them, just puzzled. 

Maybe the battery weighs more than the fuel tank but the electric motors weigh less than the ICE?  So the combo of drive system + fuel is closer to being equal?

Not sure what you have been smoking lately.... NO electric vehicle is anywhere close to "range" of an internal combustion engine.   

My 2551...loaded for a trip... At 70mph, easily gets 400 miles per tank (actually closer to 460) with about 5 gallons reserve left.

Call it 10 minutes to fill.

Show me any (let alone a 13,000 lb loaded one) pure electric vehicle that can go even 1/2 that distance and be recharged in 10 minutes.

The weight of a Tesla 3 battery alone is 1,200 lbs. 

Now scale that up to an RV sized battery. 

A Ford V-10 weighs in at 620 lbs.   

http://www.f150hub.com/specs/6.8-triton-v-10.html

And let's not forget the recent article about up to 40% less range for electric vehicles in the cold

http://www.telegraphherald.com/news/business/article_21422b18-537b-5dee-b344-c96a453f2d02.html
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Volkemon on February 11, 2019, 05:46:27 am
And yet a good lithium battery is close (almost) to the range of an ICE vehicle. 

Sure!  One can easily build a lithium battery powered car that has the same range as one with an ICE. (if you ignore weight...)  Just put a HUGE battery pack in the electric, and have a small gas tank on the ICE.

The numbers I referenced were for the 'power' part of things, IE: the gasoline or the battery. Numbers were off a google search, I used the 'best' numbers for electric and the 'worst' for gasoline to help the electric numbers all I could.

The purpose was to show how big a stumbling block energy storage was. In other words, if you carry 100 pounds of gas, or 100 pounds of lithium battery, the gas will give you 50 times the energy to move you.   I suppose the conversion efficiency is better for electric, but until we have the breakthrough in energy storage, electric vehicles will be much better suited for local use as opposed to RV/road trip use.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 11, 2019, 12:09:05 pm
Quote
Not sure what you have been smoking lately.... NO electric vehicle is anywhere close to "range" of an internal combustion engine.   
Actually I don't smoke at all.  :-D 
 
I guess it depends on your definition of 'close'.  I drive a Toyota Highlander = full tank range is 375 miles and a Jeep Cherokee = full tank range is 310 miles.  There are several electric vehicles that exceed 285 mile range.  To me that is close considering the different maturity levels of the technology.  Close is well, 'close', certainly not there yet.  And as @Volkemon says the energy storage density needs dramatic improvement before EVs replace the ICE.  But again, look where we are in the technology curve, barely into infancy for EVs.  Truely Model T era.

Tesla model 3 = 310 miles
Tesla model S = 335 miles
Chevy Bolt = 235 miles
And no that is not a fair comparison to my Highlander, just that we are 'close' to a range in electric vehicles that many people will be satisfied with.  My point is only that today you can buy an EV with a range of 285+ miles.  I would definitely not want to take it on a cross country trip but for a commuter with plug in capability at home it works. 

We are a long, long way from an electric RV in this country.  But in Europe I don't think we are that far away.  Distances are shorter there and fuel is much more expensive so the economics are different.  Germany in particular is committed to all renewable power in a relatively short time.

Quote
One can easily build a lithium battery powered car that has the same range as one with an ICE.  (if you ignore weight...) 
All I meant was that a doubling in battery energy density over the 5 years (not impossible) will allow ranges comparable to ICE vehicles. 

Anyway, I think we have strayed a long way from the original post about an all electric RV.  Which I firmly is coming.  Someday.  But not soon.  Anything in that category is going to be a technology demonstrator for a long time. 
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: donc13 on February 11, 2019, 01:07:09 pm
My last comment on this:

You forgot the recharging part.  10 minutes in gasoline vehicle, 8 to 10 hrs in an electric.

I am sure there are some, but I don't know anyone who buys a vehicle only to go back and forth to work.   Many, many commuter cars are also what's driven on vacation.

Don
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Ron Dittmer on February 11, 2019, 01:15:38 pm
I guess it depends on your definition of 'close'.  I drive a Toyota Highlander = full tank range is 375 miles and a Jeep Cherokee = full tank range is 310 miles.  There are several electric vehicles that exceed 285 mile range.  To me that is close considering the different maturity levels of the technology.  Close is well, 'close', certainly not there yet.  And as @Volkemon says the energy storage density needs dramatic improvement before EVs replace the ICE.  But again, look where we are in the technology curve, barely into infancy for EVs.  Truely Model T era.

Tesla model 3 = 310 miles
Tesla model S = 335 miles
Chevy Bolt = 235 miles
And no that is not a fair comparison to my Highlander, just that we are 'close' to a range in electric vehicles that many people will be satisfied with.  My point is only that today you can buy an EV with a range of 285+ miles.  I would definitely not want to take it on a cross country trip but for a commuter with plug in capability at home it works. 

Since we are sharing miles between replenishment.......

Our 2014 Nissan Altima with conventional internal combustion engine 4 cylinder 2.5L with the Continuously Variable Transmission (CVT) will get over 600 miles per tank full.  But driving conditions have to be just right, and I'd have to drive till I run out of gas.  Both together would never happen.  Our fuel monitor will often say that our fuel economy is ~46 mpg on a wind-less day while driving conservatively on the open road.  I had trips averaging 43 mpg.

Fuel economy , exceptional comfort for 4 of the 5 adults, a big trunk, nice bells and whistles, and a $22k (+tax) negotiated price for our "SL" model made it a very easy choice.

You don't have to "go hybrid" to get good fuel economy on a decent size comfortable vehicle.
(https://c2.staticflickr.com/8/7860/32121813277_fa45c6ae32_z.jpg)

Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 11, 2019, 01:48:11 pm
Quote
You forgot the recharging part.  10 minutes in gasoline vehicle, 8 to 10 hrs in an electric.
No I didn't forget it.  And it is a valid issue. But it is only 8 to 10 hours if you use a level 2 charger which you would at home.  On the road most likely a level 3 charger would be used which right now is about 30 - 40 minutes to 80% charge.  Still that is not good enough.

I'm sorry if my comments here gave the impression I was trying to convince anyone of anything.  For most of us an ICE will be viable (and likely the best choice) for the remainder of our lives.  But I am excited about a new technology that will (eventually) revolutionize how we power our vehicles.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: BlueBlaze on February 16, 2019, 09:16:51 am
Interesting idea, converting your house into a power generation station.  I guess that's what they mean about rebuilding every building in America for the "Green New Deal".  Because when you compare the yearly average output of a solar cell or wind mill to the current energy consumption required to run the United States, you realize that you'd basically have to convert the entire landmass into a giant energy generation station to do it. 

It's kind of like DONC13's comment about powering an electric Cruiser with the generator.  You can put enough solar cells on your roof to keep your house batteries charged, to watch TV.  But you couldn't put enough solar cells on the roof to drive it across Texas.  Real work requires lots of real energy.

It takes a lot more energy to run a country than just what we use to keep all the houses comfortable.  Solar and wind are simply not energy-dense enough to do the job without ruining the environment.  But amazingly, God apparently planned for this.  There are places right here in America where you can literally suck enough energy directly out of the ground in one little acre to power entire cities!  Isn't that amazing?

Physics!
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: dogyard on February 16, 2019, 11:25:17 am
@Blue Blaze. How could a personal computer ever replace mainframes as a business platform, the 64k of memory and 5mb hard drives will never be enough to run business critical applications.  At least that was the thinking in 1970's, I know because I made a fortune specializing in migrating companies from mainframes to pc's.
My power company (Xcel Energy) ONLY allows me to install solar panels in my home to produce 110% of what I have historically consumed if I want to participate in their "solar rewards" program selling them back my excess energy (I usually make $12-$15 dollars per month) . I have 14 panels in place, I have room on my south-facing roof for 45 more panels!  Xcel's biggest fear is that they will become a "backup" power source for customers rather than primary supplier.  I'm afraid you fail to take into account the rapidly increasing improvements in technology in your analysis and therefore reach the wrong conclusion.  BTW, it won't surprise you to learn that I'm writing this response online from my very compact, powerful and always connect cell phone, likely many others do too.   Would you have predicted that 10 years ago?
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: BlueBlaze on February 17, 2019, 09:21:21 am
@Blue Blaze. How could a personal computer ever replace mainframes as a business platform, the 64k of memory and 5mb hard drives will never be enough to run business critical applications.  At least that was the thinking in 1970's, I know because I made a fortune specializing in migrating companies from mainframes to pc's.
My power company (Xcel Energy) ONLY allows me to install solar panels in my home to produce 110% of what I have historically consumed if I want to participate in their "solar rewards" program selling them back my excess energy (I usually make $12-$15 dollars per month) . I have 14 panels in place, I have room on my south-facing roof for 45 more panels!  Xcel's biggest fear is that they will become a "backup" power source for customers rather than primary supplier.  I'm afraid you fail to take into account the rapidly increasing improvements in technology in your analysis and therefore reach the wrong conclusion.  BTW, it won't surprise you to learn that I'm writing this response online from my very compact, powerful and always connect cell phone, likely many others do too.   Would you have predicted that 10 years ago?

Microsoft didn't need a government subsidy to create the personal computer.  When solar pays for itself without a government subsidy, it will be ready for primetime and I will be on-board.  But when that day comes, whoever invents that new technology won't need corporate welfare to sell it, any more than Bill Gates did.  Unfortunately, the PHYSICS of the current technology says that solar cells are about as efficient as they will ever be.  We've had them for 60 years and the current crop is only about 30% more efficient than the first crop. "Moore's Law" doesn't seem to apply to solar cells, so we're gonna need an entirely new way to do it. But like I said, if it happens, that future Bill Gates won't need a handout to sell it. 

By the way, solar cells actually work pretty well if you don't bury them under 100 miles of atmosphere and hide them behind a planet 12 hours of every day.  NASA proposed building solar satellites back in the 70's.  Funny you never hear the anti-oil crowd talk about it.

Sorry to take us so far off topic, folks.  I'll shut up now.

Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: dogyard on February 17, 2019, 10:50:49 pm
@Blue Blaze. How could a personal computer ever replace mainframes as a business platform, the 64k of memory and 5mb hard drives will never be enough to run business critical applications.  At least that was the thinking in 1970's, I know because I made a fortune specializing in migrating companies from mainframes to pc's.
My power company (Xcel Energy) ONLY allows me to install solar panels in my home to produce 110% of what I have historically consumed if I want to participate in their "solar rewards" program selling them back my excess energy (I usually make $12-$15 dollars per month) . I have 14 panels in place, I have room on my south-facing roof for 45 more panels!  Xcel's biggest fear is that they will become a "backup" power source for customers rather than primary supplier.  I'm afraid you fail to take into account the rapidly increasing improvements in technology in your analysis and therefore reach the wrong conclusion.  BTW, it won't surprise you to learn that I'm writing this response online from my very compact, powerful and always connect cell phone, likely many others do too.   Would you have predicted that 10 years ago?

Microsoft didn't need a government subsidy to create the personal computer.  When solar pays for itself without a government subsidy, it will be ready for primetime and I will be on-board.  But when that day comes, whoever invents that new technology won't need corporate welfare to sell it, any more than Bill Gates did.  Unfortunately, the PHYSICS of the current technology says that solar cells are about as efficient as they will ever be.  We've had them for 60 years and the current crop is only about 30% more efficient than the first crop. "Moore's Law" doesn't seem to apply to solar cells, so we're gonna need an entirely new way to do it. But like I said, if it happens, that future Bill Gates won't need a handout to sell it. 

By the way, solar cells actually work pretty well if you don't bury them under 100 miles of atmosphere and hide them behind a planet 12 hours of every day.  NASA proposed building solar satellites back in the 70's.  Funny you never hear the anti-oil crowd talk about it.

Sorry to take us so far off topic, folks.  I'll shut up now.

I'll bow out as well, but do want to include this information to give some perspective to your assertion that solar is being unfairly subsidized/incented.
"Subsidies for Big Oil
Large oil companies also receive subsidies in the form of tax credits and exemptions. Oil companies have been able to avoid paying taxes on expenditures associated with the nebulous term ďintangible drilling costsĒ since 1916. Intangible drilling costs can encompass fruitless efforts to drill in new locations, as well as costs associated with new equipment or drilling infrastructure. These are huge sources of capital expenditures."
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: CalCruiser on February 18, 2019, 01:43:42 am
Yesterday I watched as my 3 year old nephew gleefully unwrapped his haul of birthday gifts. The hands-down favorites were a bulldozer, excavator, dump truck, and a Disney Cars race car.

In jest I asked the adults in the room what kind of toys would the GND crowd allow their children to play with?  One said play dough , another said water-  because itís free roflol.

After unwrapping all the gifts, the little guy really wanted to play with the excavator , and could not understand why Daddy had to take it away to charge the battery first. Sometimes itís easy to see the obvious by looking through the eyes of a child.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 22, 2019, 12:10:36 pm
@blueblaze
Quote
Interesting idea, converting your house into a power generation station.  I guess that's what they mean about rebuilding every building in America for the "Green New Deal".  Because when you compare the yearly average output of a solar cell or wind mill to the current energy consumption required to run the United States, you realize that you'd basically have to convert the entire landmass into a giant energy generation station to do it. 
We are off topic here and I certainly do not want to get into an argument about this.

Some facts about solar energy as far as residential use is concerned:

1) "Green New Deal" is a political gambit and has nothing to do with solar energy or anything else except getting elected.

2) Look up "net zero home".  The house I am building now will be net zero.  Which means it uses over a 12 month period zero external energy.  This is not pie in the sky or whacko green dreams.  It is reality.  Many homes are being built net zero. 

3) The state of California has set the residential building code to require any home built after 1/1/2020 to be net zero.  The state of Washington has just passed a similar building code road map but with no specific implementation date.

4) The average residential solar install in order to produce enough electricity on site to be "net zero" is 10 to 15kwh of panels.  Which will easily fit on most homes provided the roof is oriented roughly to the south.

5) The cost of solar panels has dropped dramatically over the last 5 years to the point that utility scale solar farms are now price competitive with new fossil fuel plants.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: BlueBlaze on February 22, 2019, 06:35:05 pm
@Blue Blaze. How could a personal computer ever replace mainframes as a business platform, the 64k of memory and 5mb hard drives will never be enough to run business critical applications.  At least that was the thinking in 1970's, I know because I made a fortune specializing in migrating companies from mainframes to pc's.
My power company (Xcel Energy) ONLY allows me to install solar panels in my home to produce 110% of what I have historically consumed if I want to participate in their "solar rewards" program selling them back my excess energy (I usually make $12-$15 dollars per month) . I have 14 panels in place, I have room on my south-facing roof for 45 more panels!  Xcel's biggest fear is that they will become a "backup" power source for customers rather than primary supplier.  I'm afraid you fail to take into account the rapidly increasing improvements in technology in your analysis and therefore reach the wrong conclusion.  BTW, it won't surprise you to learn that I'm writing this response online from my very compact, powerful and always connect cell phone, likely many others do too.   Would you have predicted that 10 years ago?

Microsoft didn't need a government subsidy to create the personal computer.  When solar pays for itself without a government subsidy, it will be ready for primetime and I will be on-board.  But when that day comes, whoever invents that new technology won't need corporate welfare to sell it, any more than Bill Gates did.  Unfortunately, the PHYSICS of the current technology says that solar cells are about as efficient as they will ever be.  We've had them for 60 years and the current crop is only about 30% more efficient than the first crop. "Moore's Law" doesn't seem to apply to solar cells, so we're gonna need an entirely new way to do it. But like I said, if it happens, that future Bill Gates won't need a handout to sell it. 

By the way, solar cells actually work pretty well if you don't bury them under 100 miles of atmosphere and hide them behind a planet 12 hours of every day.  NASA proposed building solar satellites back in the 70's.  Funny you never hear the anti-oil crowd talk about it.

Sorry to take us so far off topic, folks.  I'll shut up now.

I'll bow out as well, but do want to include this information to give some perspective to your assertion that solar is being unfairly subsidized/incented.
"Subsidies for Big Oil
Large oil companies also receive subsidies in the form of tax credits and exemptions. Oil companies have been able to avoid paying taxes on expenditures associated with the nebulous term ďintangible drilling costsĒ since 1916. Intangible drilling costs can encompass fruitless efforts to drill in new locations, as well as costs associated with new equipment or drilling infrastructure. These are huge sources of capital expenditures."

I guess I'm guilty too.  I just have a little retirement home business, but if deducting your expenses means "subsidized" then I'm just as guilty as Big Energy.  I write off our fabric, batting and every other expense involved in running our little T-Shirt Quilt business.  That's because every business in America is taxed on their PROFIT, not their gross, (as is the case with your individual taxes).  But we don't ordinarily call that a subsidy unless we're trying to make a political point.  Elon Musk gets a REAL subsidy -- the government literally writes him a check on every electric car he sells -- after allowing him to deduct literally the entire cost of making the car like any other car company.  He doesn't make a profit to tax, but they give him money to make his product, anyway.  Me and Big Energy wish we could get THAT deal!
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Joseph on February 23, 2019, 11:32:13 am
I love the net zero narrative. It would only cost me 35 grand to be at net zero and only take 30 years to pay for itself. Hmmmm Iíd be 94 and the equipment would be wore out just like me.  A 2 bedroom town home in Orange County cost 700,000+ and the new California plan adds another 25-30 grand per home.

What a crock. There isnít a day that goes by where we donít have to talk ourselves out of leaving this liberal dump. The only thing that keeps us here is family. They all want to move as well but itís not easy when your at certain ages and business as well.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 25, 2019, 01:33:45 pm
Net zero will take a while but it will come.  A better short term alternative is "Net Zero Ready".  Which includes all of the building code requirements for Net Zero but without the PV panels.  The estimated cost for that on a new build home is less than 2% over the cost of a conventional home.  So on a new build home with 30 year mortgage the payoff is rather dramatic.  The building science and techniques are there, it is just convincing builders that they need to change how they do things.  Changing the building code levels the playing floor for everyone.

One advantage of Net Zero Ready is that PV panel technology is still evolving and costs still dropping.  So building Net Zero Ready means you can add the panels years later when prices are lower or performance better.

I agree that the California mandate is overreaching but the 2016 International Residential Building Codes (when adopted) will be almost as strict as what California is proposing now although without the PV panel requirement.  Note that building codes are updated every three years and local jurisdictions generally do not adopt immediately so most places in the US are still using 2010 or even earlier versions.  But when they do adopt the new set of codes they will be requiring almost the same energy efficiency as California.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Ron Dittmer on February 25, 2019, 05:52:08 pm
We sure could use better building inspectors here in the mid-west, making sure the building codes are well practiced with regards to insulation done properly.  Then adding the windows and door systems that leak badly after just a few years is terrible.  Our son's house was built around the same time as our house but it is terribly drafty.

We built our house just over 30 years ago in 1988.  I designed it (I was the architect) and was on-site daily making sure things were done right.  I cleaned up the work site and structure on the weekends.  I first braced, then used expandable foam around all windows and doors.  I used duct tape to seal the foil-backed exterior sheathing before the Tyvec covered everything, followed by brick.  I touched up the insulation in all tight areas including the corners.  I did my best in making sure things were done right without spending a fortune, and it paid off.

I selected Andersen casement windows of which to this day are still performing like new.  We have two fireplaces, two kitchen hood vents to the outside, three bathroom vents to the outside, the dryer vent, and one shop vent to the outside.  All are dampened.  The furnace is the same generic high efficiency installed in 1988 as is the original hot water heater that vents outside with no damper.  I also have an outside vent direct into the furnace room that is free-flowing, a requirement for a chimney-less furnace.  The house is so tight that I leave the two fireplace flues open all year round for fresh air.

Our first house from 1978-1988 was less than 1/3 the volume of air but heating and cooling it costed more, even though we invested in wall and attic insulation and a furnace damper.  So much can be done with just a little extra care and attention to detail, along with good quality windows and doors.  But to be clear, it all starts with good windows and doors, and their installation.  If they stink, the rest of the effort won't be much noticed.

In recent years, I switched all lighting to LED except for the 32-4' florescent tubes in my work shop.  I feel there isn't much more we can do other than lower the thermostat in winter and raise it more in the summer, and also lower the heat in the garage.  But we want to live comfortably.  I'll never replace the furnace, hot water heater, or air conditioner due to age alone.  They were high efficiency for their time which will do until they no longer work.  It seems new ones are either made in China, or critical parts are made in China, so I am in no hurry to deal with "quality" problems.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 26, 2019, 11:50:16 am
Good info Ron.  I also designed and built my first home, a passive solar design that was one of the first in the state at that time.  Over the 20 years lived in that house our natural gas bills averaged $200 per year.  I agree good windows are key, we also used Anderson casements. 
While researching for our current build I came across this site: https://www.buildingscience.com/ these guys are trying to take the craft of construction to the science level. 

One thing that became apparent was that good insulation installed poorly is not as good as poor insulation installed properly.  And an astonishing number of homes have the insulation installed sloppily.

Another detail I never thought about was building tightness in addition to the insulation.   They now use a blower door test to make sure the building meets code for air tightness, something not even heard of when I built my first house in 1981.  Most homes built in the 70's and 80's would show a blower door test of 10 to 20 air exchanges per hour.  Code now is 3 per hour and 1 per hour is consider a goal for quality construction.  What I had not realized was that air exchanges waste as much or more heat as poor insulation.  Both are important, and both need to be done right.

Ron the extra care you took to seal up the windows and other areas has likely paid you dividends for decades.  I wonder what a blower test on your house would show?  Probably much better than the average for that era. 

It is encouraging to see the code enforced by a actual tests like a blower door test, rather than an inspector walking through and saying it looks good to me.  They are also testing for the air tightness of the HVAC ducting with code requirements that limit leakage.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: Ron Dittmer on February 26, 2019, 10:22:02 pm
jatrax,

Where were you 33 years ago?  :)  I sure would have loved to pick the brain of someone with your knowledge back in 1985-1987 during the conceptual, design, and implementation stages of our house.

A blower test on our 30+ year old house today would be interesting.....after I close the flu in both our fireplaces.  As far as I know, the only open air between the inside and outside of our house is the chimney for our gas hot water heater and the 3" vent from the outside into the furnace room with that hot water heater.  There is also a vertical 2" PVC pipe I installed inside the walls to pass coax cable between the attic and the basement which I have utilized well over the years.  A quick stuffing of insulation would remedy air infiltration there.  But as with the fireplace flu(s) a little fresh air into the house is a "must" for healthy living.  It is better to control where it enters rather than have air come in all over the place.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: 2 Frazzled on February 27, 2019, 08:38:00 am
The poor man's leak test is a stick of incense on a windy day. Light the incense and move it around the windows, doors, vents, wall switches and electrical outlets. The smoke from the incense will dance in any air movement.

I was told some places rent the fan system for the door blower test but never verified that info.
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: jatrax on February 27, 2019, 01:45:01 pm
Ron, I don't think anyone was thinking about this stuff back then.  Not until 1981 and we got our first 'gas crisis' shock.  My passive solar home was in response to that and it served me well for 25 years.  Quite satisfying that the techniques I used then are finally becoming mainstream.

The 'healthy house' thing has some truth in it.  Any new code home will include either an ERV or HRV depending on the climate.  Energy Recovery Ventilation or Heat Recovery Ventilation.  You are quite correct that the fresh air needs to enter where you control it, not in a haphazard fashion.  ERV / HRV run separate from the regular HVAC and have controls that monitor humidity.  They pull air out of bathrooms and kitchens and push fresh outside air into the bedrooms.  The air runs through a recovery coil that extracts the heat from the outgoing air and moves it to the incoming airstream (in heat mode) and the reverse if you are in cooling mode.

Primary areas of concern are not the existing flues and vents but cracks at the base board, sill plates, plumbing penetrations, electrical outlets, window and door trim.  There are some quite astonishing videos on Youtube showing how much air escapes from an improperly sealed house.

Here is a quote from Building Science Corp: 
Quote
People who say ďI want my house to breatheĒ are really saying ďI want to rely on the mistakes that were made by the plumber and the electrician to provide me with fresh air.Ē
Here is the article: Air Leaks and How They Waste Energy (https://www.buildingscience.com/documents/published-articles/pa-air-leaks-how-they-waste-energy-and-rot-houses/view)
Title: Re: 2020 Ford E450 cutaway
Post by: 2 Lucky on February 27, 2019, 05:22:08 pm
I'm pretty sure a 2020 Ford E450 cutaway is going to leak like crazy 'til someone puts an RV on it....