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Main Forum => General Discussion => Topic started by: Ron Dittmer on July 04, 2019, 07:34:20 am

Title: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 04, 2019, 07:34:20 am
Our 2007 2350 on a 2007 E350 chassis has always had a rear sag when loaded up on trips.  It is not much, but it is there.  My axle weight is as follows.

Empty at home (no people, no fresh or waste water, no food, all our stuff removed, weighed with a full tank of gasoline of 55 gallons, and a full 40 pound propane tank)
front axle - 3160
rear axle - 6760

Fully loaded on trips (with Irene and me in the front seats, all tanks full including fresh water, but empty waste tanks)
front axle - 3260
rear axle - 8220

The 2007 E-series front axle max load specs are rated as follows.
E450 cut-away - 4600 pounds
E350 cut-away - 4600 pounds
E350 van - 4600 pounds
E250 van - 4050 pounds
E150 van - 3900 pounds.

My front end sits high & light with so much extra weight placed behind the rear axle...my 40 gallon fresh water tank sits against the rear wall.  I am considering replacing my front coil springs with lower-rated ones to gain the following benefits.
- lower the front to level the rig
- yield a more comfortable ride up front
- a better starting point for a wheel alignment, maybe reverting back to centered bushings from my now offset bushings.

I don't think the change would impact handling, slightly negative if anything.

I want to purchase coil springs made in the USA.  A quick search on Ebay, the brand Moog dominates with the price for two coil springs running around $100. They claim to support Nascar.  Is Moog USA made and known for top quality?

Specifically for the E-series, Moog offers a wide range of spring rates starting at 1523 per spring (3046 per axle) E150 soft ride, increasing from there. I am thinking for our 3260 pound loaded front axle, reducing from our stock 4600 springs to 3500-3700 could make a big change for the better.  I don't want to get too close to our actual working load in-case we have a guest or two join us which has happened on a few weekend get-aways.

I looked at the work involved in changing the front coil springs and it looks quite simple, much easier than replacing the front shocks that I did last year.  I'd like to change the springs prior to new tires and Alcoa wheels, then get a wheel alignment after everything is done.

I encourage everyone's thoughts and concerns.
Ron Dittmer
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Pappy T on July 04, 2019, 08:36:33 am
Hi Ron , sent you a PM referring a shop close by . Hope all have a safe and happy 4th !
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: BlueBlaze on July 04, 2019, 08:05:41 pm
Ron, I think Firestone airbags on the rear would accomplish the same thing for less money and without the risk of being the first guy to try it.  Personally, I was unhappy with the expenditure because I was hoping they would give me more ground clearance over my levelers.  They didn't do that, but they did fix the sag when I'm carrying a full load of water (which I hardly ever do, since I don't like boondocking). 
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: donc13 on July 05, 2019, 06:49:21 am
Ron,
I think you'd be making a mistake changing out the front springs.   I am NOT an automotive engineer by any stretch of the imagination.  But I am (was) an accident reconstruction expert.

Your "problem" isn't the front end springs, it's the rear springs.  You can easily "fix" your issue by putting in load levelers on the rear.  Air adjustable type preferred.


Don't forget, when braking, especially hard braking, 60% to 70% of the weight goes to the front end.  By lowering the capacity of the front suspension, you have a greater chance of bottoming out the front causing loss of steering control. 

Yes, a sagging rear end causes issues too, but that's where you need to apply the fix.  Stronger rear springs or additional "lift" via air bags is the better solution.

Just my opinion, others may disagree.
Don
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Joseph on July 05, 2019, 08:09:13 am
If you were to by what ever means raise the rear, how would it affect the ride?  Mine rides so rough now that many roads will rattle your teeth. Iím actually surprised the cabinets havenít come loose from the jarring ride. That in mind wouldnít any beef up of the rear make it even stiffer?
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: RVCamping on July 05, 2019, 09:13:40 am
Sarz272000 - Disclaimer due to CRS disease. I will need to check the weights when I get home and post then again. - Dick
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: RVCamping on July 05, 2019, 09:16:11 am
Ride quality is rough except on smooth southern roads. Stiffer than the stock Phoenix two wheel drive models for sure.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: CalCruiser on July 05, 2019, 12:18:04 pm
Ron - dropping  the front would actually require shorter springs. Spring  rates are determined by the diameter of the steel and spacing between coils, not the overall length of the spring. A lighter  spring would just provide a softer ride with degraded  handling and braking, not a lower ride height.

Moog does offer variable rate springs, also known as progressive springs.  Try contacting them if you donít find published specs for spring lengths or ride height.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: BlueBlaze on July 05, 2019, 04:32:25 pm
If you were to by what ever means raise the rear, how would it affect the ride?  Mine rides so rough now that many roads will rattle your teeth. Iím actually surprised the cabinets havenít come loose from the jarring ride. That in mind wouldnít any beef up of the rear make it even stiffer?

I can't tell any difference with the Firestone airbags, but then I never noticed my coach being that rough in the first place.  I mean, it's not like a car, but it doesn't seem that bad for a truck.  Maybe the roads are in better shape in Texas.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: CalCruiser on July 05, 2019, 05:19:35 pm
If you were to by what ever means raise the rear, how would it affect the ride?  Mine rides so rough now that many roads will rattle your teeth. Iím actually surprised the cabinets havenít come loose from the jarring ride. That in mind wouldnít any beef up of the rear make it even stiffer?

On our beat-to-crap California highways my 2350 actually rides smoother with 35-40 psi in the Firestone ride-rite air bags.

Tire pressure makes a big difference in ride harshness. Don't exceed the cold inflation pressure specified on the tire placard. With my Bridgestone Duravis R500 HD's (very stiff sidewalls) an extra 2-3 psi is noticeable.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Joseph on July 06, 2019, 04:26:54 pm
Cal, Iím at the point of replacing the Koni shocks that are less than 2 years old. The ride is jarring on the rear. I run 65 psi on the rear.  I latterly hate the ride and as bad as Ca roads are Iíve found there isnít a state that doesnít have its share of rough roads, many Iíve found worse than Ca.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: BlueBlaze on July 07, 2019, 07:51:38 am
Cal, Iím at the point of replacing the Koni shocks that are less than 2 years old. The ride is jarring on the rear. I run 65 psi on the rear.  I latterly hate the ride and as bad as Ca roads are Iíve found there isnít a state that doesnít have its share of rough roads, many Iíve found worse than Ca.

Odd that the guys with old coaches say the ride isn't bad but the guys with newer coaches say it's terrible.  I wonder if its a 450/350 thing, or if Ford changed something that made the ride worse.  Don't the later 350's have a higher gross?  They don't seem to have the rear sag problem, either.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: bftownes on July 07, 2019, 08:51:34 am


I can't tell any difference with the Firestone airbags, but then I never noticed my coach being that rough in the first place.  I mean, it's not like a car, but it doesn't seem that bad for a truck.  Maybe the roads are in better shape in Texas.
[/quote]

Most roads in Texas are in good shape, but that I-10 through Beaumont and most of Louisiana is the worst I have experienced.  Where in Texas are you located?  We just recently moved back to Texas...Georgetown.    Living in the PC until we close on our house.

Cheers :)(:
Barry T
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Joseph on July 07, 2019, 03:18:04 pm
The road going thru oil country in Texas was pure hell. If I recall itís the 285. If I had known of it being oil country I would have avoided like the plague.  The roads in Ohio have been no picnic either. I donít think any state is exempt .

In my opinion I made a bad choice in the koni shocks. I donít know what the answer is but it damn sure isnít  Koni to address a rough ride. My rear end is like riding a rigid frame bike.


This aside back to Ronís issue. Wouldnít the sag issue be addressed by rear air bags? I donít know if they are available or cost prohibitive, just throwing out a thought.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 07, 2019, 11:27:05 pm
I will be calling Moog technical support (hopefully tomorrow) to pick their brain on my actual max load of 3260 pounds.  My current stock 2007 E350 springs are rated at 4600 pounds, the same as an E450 of the same model year.  Moog offers part number CC81366 (https://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?brandId=MC&pNum=CC81366&partType=Coil%20Spring%20Set) which x2 is rated at 3786 pounds.  The coil springs have some coils closer and some farther apart to provide a softer ride as well.

I am determined to research this through.  If convinced, I will buy a new pair, install them myself, and see how they perform.  I want to try all this out with my old tires before replacing them, followed by a front wheel alignment.

Rock Auto sells them by the pair for $108 with taxes and shipping included.

Raising the rear with air bags or other means, presents a height issue clearing our garage door.  I could let the air out of air bags, but knowing me, I will forget to do it.

Replacing the front springs seems to offer these benefits.
- a better wheel alignment
- a softer ride up front where we would feel it most
- a little lower over-all height (more clearance to our garage door opening)
- a level rig when loaded up
- a little lower first step into the front cab
- a minor improvement in aerodynamics and handling

Ground clearance is so much now.  I can afford an inch or two lower and still crawl under for an oil change without jacking up the front.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 08, 2019, 11:06:05 am
Putting the bigger springs from a E250 or E350 seems to be a 'thing' with the off road van community. So maybe the reverse will work also.

https://expeditionportal.com/forum/threads/e350-coil-springs-versus-e150-springs.69931/

But I agree with CalCruiser - the spring length is more the issue than the weight handling, after all it is too light to begin with. Maybe get a stock spring and have a coil cut?

I looked for a while for E350 lowering kits, not much out there. These looked appealing, but I dont know if they need more to work with coils...

https://www.airbagit.com/dropped-lowered-Ibeams-p/ibe-fo07xx-van.htmm
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 09, 2019, 12:52:04 am
My research continued over the past 24 hours with the E-Series 2007 Ford chassis specs in-hand which states the same front coil spring is used on the E350 van, E350 cut-away chassis, and E450 cut-away chassis, all with a front GAWR of 4600 pounds.

I spent some time on Rock Auto's website which lists Moog springs for the E150, E250, and E350 van.  The E350 Moog spring is CC81366 which would also be the same for the E350 cut-away and E450 cut-away.  I compared the specs of that spring to the E250's CC81368 and the E150's CC81370.  Doing the math with the specs and comparing those numbers to my 2007 spec sheet, my light front suspension should benefit best from the E150 CC81370 spring offering a front GAWR of 3860 pounds which is 600 pounds greater than my heaviest front axle load on a trip.  The GAWR reduction is 740 pounds, I think ideal for the reasons I mentioned earlier.

I also called Moog spring technical support to pick their brain.  The fellow there said that a spring design load times two springs, will be significantly less than the GAWR because of the difference in weight resting on the springs versus the weight of the front axle when driven on a scale.  That made a lot of sense which further supported my "doing math" to determine the best spring to choose.

A pair of Moog E150 CC81370 springs with tax and shipping cost me an affordable $96.45.  They are compatible with my E350 cut-away suspension and seemingly easily to swap, so I ordered them, will install them myself, and try them out.

We won't be taking any big road trips this year due to expenses.  We need tires with plans also for Alcoa wheels.  We also took two lengthy and very expensive over-seas trips to Israel twice, and Greece & Egypt once in the past 6 months.  So it will be a great summer to experiment with front springs.  If the results are poor, I may try spring CC81368 for the E250.  If pleased with the results, I will post an article with pictures in the Tips and Tricks section for the benefit of others with a 2100 and 2350 Phoenix Cruiser.  I feel both models suffer from a poor ratio between wheel base and rear over-hang which I feel lifts and lightens the front axle a bit much.

For those who want to know, the physical differences between an E150 and E350 spring is not much.  They have the same ID, OD, bar diameter, spring rate per inch, and number of coils.  The free height is their only difference, the E150 being 0.627" shorter, hence the 10 coils are a bit closer together.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 09, 2019, 05:05:30 am


For those who want to know, the physical differences between an E150 and E350 spring is not much.  They have the same ID, OD, bar diameter, spring rate per inch, and number of coils.  The free height is their only difference, the E150 being 0.627" shorter, hence the 10 coils are a bit closer together.

So the expected result is to have the front end ~1/2 inch lower? (assuming the originals did not 'sag' at all)

GREAT research Ron!!! Following with interest.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 09, 2019, 11:50:52 am


For those who want to know, the physical differences between an E150 and E350 spring is not much.  They have the same ID, OD, bar diameter, spring rate per inch, and number of coils.  The free height is their only difference, the E150 being 0.627" shorter, hence the 10 coils are a bit closer together.

So the expected result is to have the front end ~1/2 inch lower? (assuming the originals did not 'sag' at all)

GREAT research Ron!!! Following with interest.
I hope the front lowers some amount more than 0.627", compressing down a bit more than the E350 springs.  I will take front bumper height measurements with each spring type installed.    If the ride height difference is just that alone, it will still be a success as long as the ride is softer.  We always thought our E350 had an overly stiff front suspension since brand new in 2007, and it is no different with our new Bilstein HD shocks.  For our 2007 2350, the majority of weight is on the rear axle, I feel leaving the front too light for the E350 Super Duty springs.

I will also pay close attention to any changes in handling.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 09, 2019, 01:16:25 pm
I hope you get more drop than the .6 inches also for all that work!  But once you get the 'in and out' figured on those springs it will be easy to modify as you go.

My race car buddies reminded me there is an engineered way also...



There are variables, but a pair of custom made springs go from $250-$350. I was expecting closer to $500. .   They can tailor them to desired ride height, and 'cushy'ness.  Springs to order!!  heartshower

 I told him I was 99.9% sure PC did NOT alter the stock cutaway, so he said either a) the tag on the spring or b) take the vin to a dealer and get the part number. If it is NLA or superseded, its OK. Just get the stock number. (should be 8 digits, with a couple letters he said)

Yes, its a couple hundred bucks more,  but engineered professionally for your specific vehicle.  I like that. Mrs V likes safe too... I will be getting more info to him tonight and see what the final quote is. But for $350 maximum... and 'dialed in' to my exact wants.. I honestly think it is a bargain!

Thanks Ron for inspiring yet another improvement on our 2350.   YOU da man!  :cool

Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 09, 2019, 04:31:05 pm
Tag was still on my spring. 

ROLLCALL!     roflol   I got 3C245310VA  for a front coil spring part number.                PC model 2350   Year 2006

I have my camper parked 'kittywampus' in the drive, and not inclined to go in the rain and move it. I am guessing I want 1.5" of drop, but think it a good idea to maybe load and check the height before ordering.  (exactly)  Might want lower.  ;) 




Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 09, 2019, 05:01:05 pm
Tag was still on my spring.  I got 3C245310VA  for a front coil spring part number.  PC model 2350   Year 2006
I got that exact same part number off the internet for our 2007 E350.  The local Ford dealer gave me part number F2UA5310VA.  The common denominator is 5310-VA, not sure of the difference in the prefix.  It could be a change in part numbers for the same part, a common practice in the auto industry.

Neither Ford part number worked with the Moog website, nor were they useful with Moog's technical support.  I had to resort to other methods in determining which Moog spring to order from Rock Auto.  It was a bit of a math and science project.  If I ordered the wrong springs, I'll be out 4 to 5 hours of my own labor and $96, well worth "a try" to me.  It wouldn't be the first time I put effort and a little money into a learning experience alone.  I enjoy doing such with potential for a substantial payoff.  Experimenting with front coil springs, there is no harm in reverting back to what I started with.  It's like experimenting with various shock absorbers.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: CalCruiser on July 09, 2019, 06:15:46 pm
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/lowering-my-van/43961/page1/
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: BlueBlaze on July 09, 2019, 07:20:44 pm
Ron, my barn has a 10' door, and the airbags had no impact.  I have tested driving it in with the bags inflated up to 75 pounds.  Like I said, they merely cure the sag. They don't INCREASE the height -- which was my entire complaint.  I was hoping to gain a couple of inches clearance, but the only time they help with that is when I've lost 2" from carrying a full water tank. 

Hard to argue with $100, though, if you've verified that it's safe.

As for the road conditions on I-10, it's miserable, but not because of the road quality, which is excellent in Texas.  The only problem in Texas is the constant road work to widen it to deal with the ridiculous amount of traffic.  I drive this route regularly, between Cypress, TX and my kids in Florida.  It's positively a relief when you finally hit Texas and escape all the traffic problems in Louisiana due to the out of date narrow bridges over the Mississippi, Lake Charles, and the Atchafalaya.  If it was as bad in Texas as described, the speed limit wouldn't be 75.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 10, 2019, 05:37:22 am
https://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/lowering-my-van/43961/page1/

Yeah, thats where I found that link for the airbagit front beam.   Unfortunately, it is a 'one off' product, and only built if you order one. And can be adapted to coils, but is intended for airbags. Its a pretty complicated weldment, which makes me leery that its made to order.... I would much rather it be built in batches, with a weld order and cooling times outlined. 'Order built' can be hurried by its nature...

Tag was still on my spring.  I got 3C245310VA  for a front coil spring part number.  PC model 2350   Year 2006
I got that exact same part number off the internet for our 2007 E350.  The local Ford dealer gave me part number F2UA5310VA.  The common denominator is 5310-VA, not sure of the difference in the prefix.  It could be a change in part numbers for the same part, a common practice in the auto industry.

Neither Ford part number worked with the Moog website, nor were they useful with Moog's technical support.  I had to resort to other methods in determining which Moog spring to order from Rock Auto.  It was a bit of a math and science project.  If I ordered the wrong springs, I'll be out 4 to 5 hours of my own labor and $96, well worth "a try" to me.  It wouldn't be the first time I put effort and a little money into a learning experience alone.  I enjoy doing such with potential for a substantial payoff.  Experimenting with front coil springs, there is no harm in reverting back to what I started with.  It's like experimenting with various shock absorbers.



The tag was on my spring, surprised yours wasnt still on there.  (WH)

I admire your spirit, but I have twisted wrenches too long to get joy in doing the same job several times. Getting the right spring custom made is worth a couple hundred easily in my book.  I checked with my 'alignment guy'  to make sure the front end can still be aligned properly with a 2" drop.  His first reply was 'isnt it kinda high over stock to start with? ' which means I am carrying a tape measure and looking for stock E series vans to measure.  :lol   But he did say that a STOCK height can be lowered 2 inches and still be adjusted within specs, so I am looking good. Just with the original height being OVER stock, my desired drop may be more than 2 inches from 'coachbuilt' height, but not more than 2 inches from 'factory designed' ride height.

And the reason PC doesnt spring (hahahahaha see what I did there?) for the extra cost and replace the front coils is because then that WHOLE package must be re certified because they are resellers. As 'end users' we can replace parts without that requirement.  :)(:

Be interested in your results.  Right now (from the passenger side) my coach looks like it is 4WD the way it is parked,  roflol so if the rain holds off I am gonna level it tonight and measure.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 10, 2019, 09:58:14 am
The tag was on my spring, surprised yours wasnt still on there.  (WH)
My tags may still be on my front coil springs as well.  I didn't think of looking until after you had done so on your 2006 2350.  I should crawl under and see what my tags say, though not sure what to do with the information now.

About the idea of air bags in the rear on our 2007 2350, I feel that is addressing only part my goal in keeping the rig level.  Being the miser that I am (most beneficial, lowest cost), I am trying to come up with a very affordable, readily available $96 solution (plus installation).  If successful, no human interaction would be required, and hoping to address a longer list of minor issues.

I imagine PC owners with model 2551 and longer, scanning through this thread may think I am a loon, but if you owned a 2100, 2350, and maybe even 2400 you should find this interesting.  I feel model 2100 would be the best candidate for lower rated front coil springs, given so much weight rests behind the rear axle has the front lifted worse than our model 2350.

I have wondered this.
The Sprinter version of model 2350 has a stock wheel base of 170", the Ford utilizes the stock 158" wheel base.  I wonder if stretching the Ford 158" to 170" would best address the problem.  That would transfer more weight from the heavily-loaded rear axle to the lightly-loaded front axle.  Certainly this could not be retrofitted on an existing rig, but rather included in a brand new special ordered Ford-based 2350.  Moving the rear axle 12" more rearward might make quite an improvement in weight distribution, quality of ride, better front wheel alignment, and better handling.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 10, 2019, 11:24:02 am
 (cheer) The tag on my passenger spring was easy to read in the wheelwell. Took a cell pic of it, no crawling under required.  (cheer)

Well, no arguing that a $96 solution is initially more economical than a $300 solution.  2o2   

We would have saved ~$5K+ if we had gotten a 28 foot Coachmen instead of our 24 foot PC. At the same dealer, it was one year newer (2007). The salesman was kinda confused when we were not even interested in looking, and just wanted to inspect the PC. I was aware of the many advantages that were not obvious with the PC, thanks to Mrs. V's research. He really had no idea why that little coach was at a premium.

I feel the same with parts.  Moog is certainly a respected name, and sells very capable parts. Their $98 springs probably look near identical to the $300 springs.  But after talking with Kevin, and reading up on the company, I am impressed with their process. They can provide me with an alloy datasheet for the metal used, and the test results of the very spring I will install on my vehicle. That they test in house before it ships.   This is 'professional grade' stuff in my book, not the parts you buy from Autozone* or Rock Auto, Discount Auto, et al.

Like the $5K more for the PC, another $200 to upgrade to 'custom made for my needs and tested to meet specs' springs may seem strange to someone who does not know all the information I base the decision on.  Automotive Geek life.  :lol

Time will tell!  I look forward to following your progress. I know it will be well written and thought out.







* Dont get me wrong - There are many pro shops that use AZ for parts. We did, but not for the quality of the part. AZ was the only supplier that PAID FOR WARRANTY LABOR if the parts supplied were a warranty issue.  We used AZ parts for our cheaper customers, we knew they would squeal the loudest if the part failed and they had to pay for labor again. (Like its OUR fault the part failed...?!?!)   Heck, my front shocks are from AZ, and I love the cushy ride. So are my brake calipers!
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 11, 2019, 09:50:51 pm
My two Moog CC81370 E150 Springs from Rock Auto came today.  Boy these things are heavy.

I failed to mention this earlier.  The Moog CC81370 springs I bought have a variable spring rate where the coils near the top are closer together than the coils near the bottom.  I don't know if my original Ford E350 springs are equally spaced.


I have so much going on in July.  I likely won't get to the project until later this month or early next month.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 13, 2019, 05:58:15 am
Looks like July is out for me too. I spec'd a 2" drop on the driver side, and 2.5" drop on the passenger side. 15% lower spring rate for a cushier ride. $325 delivered.

On my 2350, the slide, LP tank, generator and fridge are all on the driver side, and it has always been a 1/2-3/4 inch lower. I would like to see if the front spring can correct that a bit.

I asked about progressive rate. He said they make them, but he does not like to sell them for steering axle use. Since i had been on hold for ~25 min waiting for him, I didnt question it.  :lol I did a bit of googling to try to corroborate that opinion and didnt find much, but did find a mustang page that covered it.

https://www.cjponyparts.com/resources/mustang-linear-vs-progressive-springs

In short, looks like its a performance driving issue, and personal preference. I copied and pasted some off the link above.

Why people might prefer linear:

Handling Feel: Weíre not talking about handling capability; weíre talking about overall feel you get from the suspension components working in unison as your car takes a turn. This is how your suspension communicates with your chassis and in turn, communicates with you as youíre cornering at speed. Itís a simple fact that linear springs will communicate better than progressive springs due to the predictability of a constant spring rate.

Not A Daily Driver: Is your Mustang a Weekend Warrior? Great! Linear springs may be a good choice for you since a rougher ride quality wonít be at the top of your list.

Handling > Ride Quality: If you value handling more than ride quality, then linear springs are the way to go for you.

Why people might prefer progressive:

Better Ride Quality: In comparison to linear lowering springs, progressive lowering springs will offer a smoother, more enjoyable ride.

Your Vehicle Is A Daily Driver: If your vehicle is a daily driver and youíre constantly in the driverís seat, youíre probably not going to want a rough ride.

Ride Quality > Handling: If youíre willing to sacrifice a little bit of handling


So it appears there is merit to him not wanting to put progressives in front. Just oriented towards performance and handling(safety) and not comfort. But as most wont be pushing their PC's to 'extreme handling limits' it looks like progressives are a fine choice for the front.  (exactly) Especially (In my opinion)  if you have upgraded other components like Ron has - rear sway bar, track bar, over sized front sway bar etc.

So now a 3 week hiatus for that project.  :)(:
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 13, 2019, 07:04:50 am
Volkemon,

One of my primary goals in changing the front two springs from E350 to E150 is to achieve a softer ride up front where the both of us and also our PC would appreciate.  As you say, I think I can afford a little sacrifice in handling (if any is sacrificed) given all the other suspension upgrades I had done.

Progressive/variable-rate springs, or linear was not optional for my choice.  It kind-of makes sense regarding the benefit they offer so I look forward to my test drive.  I do wonder if our original E350 springs today are progressive because Moog only offers progressive across the E-series.  When I take the old ones out, I will take comparison photos.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 13, 2019, 11:23:25 pm
Hey, I have this pic of one of my stock E350 front springs.  The picture was taken with no weight on the front suspension.  The spring has equal spacing between the coils so it is not a progressive/variable spring.  I see it has a part number tag.  I will eventually get the part number and post it.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/941/42650448755_8bf24e2644_z.jpg)

Here are the new E150 springs.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48278046116_78802b13bc_z.jpg)

They are obviously progressive/variable springs.  I will take measurements myself when I have an original spring out, but the new E150 springs supposedly have the exact same dimensions, same material, and same material thickness as the originals.  The only difference is the distance between the coils.  I admit I don't understand how the E150 can have everything identical minus the varying distance between the coils, making them a lower-rated spring with a softer ride.
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48278126992_ab934ab6e7_z.jpg)
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 15, 2019, 04:34:36 am
They are beautiful!     (cheer)

Start soaking the bolts now with your favorite penetrating oil. Makes for easier work later.   :)(:
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 15, 2019, 01:01:16 pm
The only difference is the distance between the coils.  I admit I don't understand how the E150 can have everything identical minus the varying distance between the coils, making them a lower-rated spring with a softer ride.


Note that the new coils are 9 turns with a pigtail, and the originals are 8 turns and a tail.

To oversimplify,  a coil spring is similar to a screw for this example. In the same way a screw is an inclined plane wrapped around a cylinder, a coil spring is a long straight springy bar (like a diving board maybe? a better example escapes me at the moment) wrapped around a cylinder.  With the same diameter, an additional turn makes it a longer spring.

So... if you imagine standing on a diving board, the longer the board, the 'softer' it is, or the easier it bounces.  (more leverage) The overall longer length of spring rod used to make the same diameter coil (but with more turns) will be softer. (all other variables being equal) 

Yes, this is an imperfect and very simplified analogy, apologies to the mechanical engineers out there, but I hope it gives some enlightenment.  (exactly)

Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 15, 2019, 06:57:11 pm
I am considering the pig tails as part of a full turn......

I count 9.5 turns on the new Moog coils, but the spec HERE (https://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?brandId=MC&pNum=CC81370&partType=Coil%20Spring%20Set) says 10.  Maybe they round-up.

My originals, I count a full 9 turns.

I am not worried about disassembly.  Everything always comes apart nicely because there is no corrosion on the rig.  I changed the shocks last year and the old ones unscrewed off just fine.  No need to cut them off as is the usual practice.  I wanted to disassemble them to take pictures for comparison purposes.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 16, 2019, 03:41:25 am
I am considering the pig tails as part of a full turn......

I count 9.5 turns on the new Moog coils, but the spec HERE (https://www.fme-cat.com/overlays/part-detail.aspx?brandId=MC&pNum=CC81370&partType=Coil%20Spring%20Set) says 10.  Maybe they round-up.

My originals, I count a full 9 turns.

I am not worried about disassembly.  Everything always comes apart nicely because there is no corrosion on the rig.  I changed the shocks last year and the old ones unscrewed off just fine.  No need to cut them off as is the usual practice.  I wanted to disassemble them to take pictures for comparison purposes.

Gotta love garage stored...  not used to thinking like that. :)  I am soaking mine, as I dont know if it has *ever* been stored inside a building since it left PC in 2006.  (WH)

Dunno about 'proper' coil count, I suppose as long as you use the same system of counting between the two it shouldnt make much difference. (8/9=.89, 9/10 =.9)  Either way, it looks like a ~10% in rate reduction IF the same materials were used in both. Again, an armchair guess. Engineers are welcomed to comment. Please.

 I just looked at the pics you supplied and counted the bumps on top. For once I kept it simple.......  roflol  It was bound to happen someday.







Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 16, 2019, 11:23:07 am
Yes you and I are both arm chair coil spring engineers.  roflol

Let us hope nobody else reads this thread seriously until "after" we are done with our front coil spring replacements, hopefully with great results to share with the PC community.  You and I are taking different coil spring replacement approaches trying to address much of the same.  Your focus is more on lowering the front through custom-made springs to get a specific height.  My pursuit is an out-of-box approach to soften the ride up front with hopes of also lowering the front by whatever it gives me.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 16, 2019, 12:34:35 pm
Yes you and I are both arm chair coil spring engineers.  roflol

Let us hope nobody else reads this thread seriously until "after" we are done with our front coil spring replacements, hopefully with great results to share with the PC community.  You and I are taking different coil spring replacement approaches trying to address much of the same.  Your focus is more on lowering the front through custom-made springs to get a specific height.  My pursuit is an out-of-box approach to soften the ride up front with hopes of also lowering the front by whatever it gives me.

Not me!  Before I put the work into it I would LOVE it if someone with the proper knowledge chimed in.  PLEASE.  tymote  SAVE ME FROM MYSELF!!  2o2

But yes, a shadetree vs engineered approach is certainly covering the bases!   We got it all here on the forum.

Mechanics Joke, new to me today...  What does ASE stand for?  Ask Someone Else    roflol    Now that my certs have expired, its even funnier.  (nod)

Wonder why the BOLD button doesnt work here. Odd.  Puts the {b}  {/b} code in...  (WH)  Used underline instead.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 16, 2019, 08:47:11 pm
Not me!  Before I put the work into it I would LOVE it if someone with the proper knowledge chimed in.  PLEASE.
Oh, that surely goes without an explanation.  YES YES YES, a real "Coil Spring" engineer would get a very warm welcome from the two of us.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: CalCruiser on July 17, 2019, 01:59:58 am
Ron - you may get lucky with those e-150 aftermarket progressive springs because the e-350 Super Duty has a much larger, heavier engine. 

Progressive dual-rate springs act like a 2-stage suspension. The lighter (tightly spaced) coils compress first until touching before the stiffer (widely spaced) coils compress under more extreme conditions, resulting in a softer ride without compromising handling and braking too much.

Because pure lowering springs are significantly shorter, they also have to be  much stiffer to prevent bottoming out, resulting in a much  harsher ride.

Custom spring manufactures measure true ride height between the wheel center and fender lip to eliminate wheel and tire size variables. But you wonít find any data for an e-150 with a 6.8 engine swap anyway, so go for it  2o2. You may want to test drive it and then let it settle inside the bat cave for a few weeks before aligning, just in case the new springs sag, then measure it again periodically after putting on some miles.

Hereís a better explanation from a real engineer - the last paragraph may be of particular  interest 😎
https://www.hypercoils.com/tech-tips/linear-vs-progressive-rate-suspension-springs/
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: donc13 on July 17, 2019, 12:31:55 pm
Ron,

I would strongly suggest you keep the old springs so you can have them re-installed if and when you sell your PC.

Modifications the affect the load capacity and steering geometry (lowered front end) can create a liability for you should that change cause an injury or accident.

Just sayin'

Your choice.

Don
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 17, 2019, 06:56:28 pm
Ron,

I would strongly suggest you keep the old springs so you can have them re-installed if and when you sell your PC.

Modifications the affect the load capacity and steering geometry (lowered front end) can create a liability for you should that change cause an injury or accident.

Just sayin'

Your choice.

Don
I appreciate your comment Don.

One thing I can say is that my front end is higher and lighter than it should be, so much that the alignment shop had to use offset bushings for a proper alignment.  I am hoping that one of a few benefits from the E150 springs is that I could go back to centered bushings, bringing the front suspension back down to the OEM Ford spec position.

I will surely keep the original E350 springs, tossing them up in the attic where I just might forget I have them, ha, ha.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 17, 2019, 07:00:03 pm
Ron - you may get lucky with those e-150 aftermarket progressive springs because the e-350 Super Duty has a much larger, heavier engine. 

Progressive dual-rate springs act like a 2-stage suspension. The lighter (tightly spaced) coils compress first until touching before the stiffer (widely spaced) coils compress under more extreme conditions, resulting in a softer ride without compromising handling and braking too much.

Because pure lowering springs are significantly shorter, they also have to be  much stiffer to prevent bottoming out, resulting in a much  harsher ride.

Custom spring manufactures measure true ride height between the wheel center and fender lip to eliminate wheel and tire size variables. But you wonít find any data for an e-150 with a 6.8 engine swap anyway, so go for it  2o2. You may want to test drive it and then let it settle inside the bat cave for a few weeks before aligning, just in case the new springs sag, then measure it again periodically after putting on some miles.

Hereís a better explanation from a real engineer - the last paragraph may be of particular  interest 😎
https://www.hypercoils.com/tech-tips/linear-vs-progressive-rate-suspension-springs/
Thank you for the encouragement!
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 18, 2019, 11:36:36 am


Because pure lowering springs are significantly shorter, they also have to be  much stiffer to prevent bottoming out, resulting in a much  harsher ride.

WRONG. They dont have to be stiffer. A custom spring manufacturer can tailor the spring rate regardless of the wheel travel. You DO indeed run closer to the bump stop when you lower the ride height below stock, reducing suspension travel. Bump stops are trimmed in extreme lowering cases. They can make the ride as hard or as soft as you want in roughly 15% increments of spring rate. In my application, being that the ride height starts out higher than the stock cutaway height, the wheel travel should be close to stock after i lower it.   

Custom spring manufactures measure true ride height between the wheel center and fender lip to eliminate wheel and tire size variables.

Not mine, as this is a custom spring. He was interested in the height reduction I wanted, ground to fender lip. This spring is not being made to fit a bunch of cars where the wheels could be a variable. It is being custom made for one vehicle. Heck, he is even making one side 1/2 taller to accommodate my non-factory added weight.


 But you wonít find any data for an e-150 with a 6.8 engine swap anyway, so go for it  2o2. You may want to test drive it and then let it settle inside the bat cave for a few weeks before aligning, just in case the new springs sag, then measure it again periodically after putting on some miles.

TRUE! Wont find much data for a E350 with the RV weight added..with or without slide, etc either.  But that data is only really valuable to the 'shadetree' who is trying to fit one model part onto another. My custom spring maker has the data for the springs that were factory fitted on my coach. He can use this data to reconfigure a set of specs for my desires. Then he has a machine that pre-stresses the spring , putting it though many cycles to almost coil bind to ensure the springs have their 'set'. Then each spring is put on another machine to ensure the spring rate and resting height are still accurate. If not, they make another.



Thats the difference between 'off the shelf mass produced'  and 'custom manufactured'.   I thought that had value, so I paid more.  Next time I talk with him, I will ask him why he does not favor progressives on a truck steering axle.  Like you, all the links I can find regarding prog vs linear springs are for car racing, not one ton trucks.

I think one of the best things is that we must have people who read this MUCH more aware of their suspension.  (exactly)
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 18, 2019, 01:10:06 pm
OK, after a brief hold (!) I was able to talk with another tech about progressive springs on trucks...

They do not like the non-linear response in heavier vehicles, especially in extreme/emergency handling situations.  He also said thats why you dont find progressives on heavy (1 ton+) trucks from the factory. He is a mechanical engineer, and was amused I asked for his credentials. He stated they do make progressives for the back of heavy trucks, and for the front of lighter vehicles. He said their racing people (track, they dont do a lot of off road) prefer linear for the predictability in extremes, but the drag racers prefer progressive. 

I thanked him profusely for his time, and for reassuring me on my purchase. Now for them to get made...  (exactly)  CANT WAIT!
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: CalCruiser on July 18, 2019, 05:43:59 pm
Donít forget Ron is running larger diameter front and rear  sway bars, so his starting point is already stiffer with decreased body roll.

Surely Moog must know what they are doing selling an entire  line of  dual-rate progressive front springs for light trucks. Remember those funny looking old Willys gasser dragsters that sit with the front end up so high?? Front drag springs are designed for maximum unloading and loading, to control the extreme weight transfer without acting like pogo sticks.

This thread is getting deep for sure! Maybe Liquid $prings could  make some adjustable front coilovers for motorhomes, that would be the ultimate setup!
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on July 18, 2019, 09:25:30 pm
Donít forget Ron is running larger diameter front and rear  sway bars, so his starting point is already stiffer with decreased body roll.
Also consider that last year I installed heavy duty Bilstein shock absorbers in all 4 corners.

I hope people reading all this understand that replacing my old shocks with the HD Bilsteins, the change did not inspire me to look into changing front springs.  The new shocks did not negatively affect the roughness of the ride.  I had "softer front springs" in-mind long ago, a number of years back.  I am taking action now only because I will be replacing my tires and I want the front end re-aligned with the change in springs included.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on July 26, 2019, 04:53:03 am


This thread is getting deep for sure! Maybe Liquid $prings could  make some adjustable front coilovers for motorhomes, that would be the ultimate setup!

AIR JORDAN SPRINGS.   roflol

Edit to add link... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7usNS8BCzs  Someone did this with a car.

My springs came in!   Look purdy... may get the grandson to help me install them. Be a good experience for him, he is 8.  I will try not to teach him any new words...  :lol  Though spending his early youth at Bragg with the 101st (His Daddy served), he does know WAY too many 'salty words'.  :beg

Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: RJW365 on July 26, 2019, 02:41:15 pm
The road going thru oil country in Texas was pure hell. If I recall itís the 285. If I had known of it being oil country I would have avoided like the plague.  The roads in Ohio have been no picnic either. I donít think any state is exempt .

In my opinion I made a bad choice in the koni shocks. I donít know what the answer is but it damn sure isnít  Koni to address a rough ride. My rear end is like riding a rigid frame bike.


This aside back to Ronís issue. Wouldnít the sag issue be addressed by rear air bags? I donít know if they are available or cost prohibitive, just throwing out a thought.

Hi, Did you install the Koni FSD shocks? We are researching them as an option for our similar problem.  We have a new E450 2019 PC 2350, we have the Air Ride in the rear.  The E450 is a terrible ride over any bump  I just created a new post today with more details.
Thanks
Rob


Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: dogyard on July 26, 2019, 04:20:00 pm
]
Hi, Did you install the Koni FSD shocks? We are researching them as an option for our similar problem.  We have a new E450 2019 PC 2350, we have the Air Ride in the rear.  The E450 is a terrible ride over any bump  I just created a new post today with more details.
Thanks
Rob
[/quote]

Hi Rob, I've got a (used) 2014 PC 2350 on an E-450 and the first improvements I made was 4 Koni FSD's along with Roadmaster front & rear sway bars and a Reflex steering stabilizer.  Handling was night and day improved BUT jarring, jolting, banging, bumping over bad roads continues albeit somewhat more tame.  I think the only cure there may be the Liquid Springs or Kelderman - https://kelderman.com/news/2011-ford-e-350450-2-stage-rear-air-suspension/  but both are too cost prohibitive for me.  Good luck on your quest, time has taught me to pack, cushion and dampen all gear as best I can.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on September 11, 2019, 10:34:19 am
UPDATE!

Taking the easy way out, having a buddy do it at his shop. $300 for replacement/alignment is pretty darn reasonable. Add rainy season in Florida, driveway mechanics... Oh hell yes.  (nod)  Goes in tomorrow morning.  (cheer)

FINALLY found the RoadBounce app had installed itself on a tablet I had, not my phone.  (WH)  Used it to get a baseline this morning....what a dud. The free version only tells you percentage of good/bad road. Worthless for a baseline measurement.  Once again, back to the 'Butt Dyno'. Oh well, I tried. I have an Android phone, and dont see any other similar apps.

Little excited to see how the handling changes with the 2" lower ride height and 15% lower spring rate.  It is nice knowing that for $300 I can go back to stock if it does not pan out. I have a feeling that I will be happy.

Will try to get before and after pics in the same spot to show the difference. 
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on September 12, 2019, 02:43:34 pm
UPDATE!


Ow. But somewhat expected... the camper had the 'special' bushings in it to make it align with the front end so high up. I was aware of that, but hoping the 2" reduction would still be in the range. Nope.  Not to be done 'right'. They offered to leave it, and advised the camber would be a bit off.

Now that it is stock height, it needs stock bushings.   That take ~1.25 hrs per side. (I checked the flat rate) so NEW bill is $650 + tax.  And not done till tomorrow.

So Ron... maybe have stock bushings ready if you do achieve a bigger drop than 1". OR watch them align it, and be SURE the camber is correct.

Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Ron Dittmer on September 12, 2019, 10:35:30 pm
So Ron... maybe have stock bushings ready if you do achieve a bigger drop than 1". OR watch them align it, and be SURE the camber is correct.
Thanks for the warning.  I did wonder about that.  After my spring-rate change, if the front lowers as I hope, I will consider replacing my offset bushings with new "original" centered bushings myself.  If a shop does it, I too should be able to.....new territory for me for sure.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on September 13, 2019, 08:59:24 am
WOW.

I am driving a different vehicle now. No more 'floating' feeling over bumps.  SO glad I opted for the 15% rate reduction, the weight transfer lowering it did firm up the front ride a bit over what it was before. Sorta hard to tell if it is firmer, or just feels that way because the 'floatyness' is gone.

Steering is much more precise with the geometry up front back to stock height, not raised.  The owner of the shop (they do trucks/RV's regularly) was impressed by the overall build, and how tight the whole rig felt on test drive. Also commented on the power, and told me he DID goose it to see how it did once he realized it was a V!0.  (exactly)  He personally overlooked the job, as he was VERY embarrassed about the price doubling. Our company does ~15K a year with them on our equipment, and I am sure he wanted to make things right. He told me my camper rides and handles better than his 2018 F250 quad cab 2WD.  (cheer)  (cheer)  (cheer)

Pics when I get home. I am pleased at the result for $1000. 
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on September 17, 2019, 10:36:22 am
OK, sorry for no pics yet. Had 2 gigs this weekend and sick on top of that.

But I had to update. I honestly feel like I am driving another rig.  ~300 miles this weekend,  (2) 150 mile round trips, on US1,  Practically due south going, due north for return.  20 MPH constant wind from the  East and Northeast from hurricane Humberto offshore. Gusts to ~30.

FULL gas tank, ~20 gal in fresh, gray/black empty, probably 400 (?) pounds of audio and video gear inside.  Guessing.... never weighed my recording gear...  (WH)

BEFORE, this would have a constant need for attention at the wheel, steering against the wind. Very tiring, as the front would be somewhat indecisive in its direction. Definitely 'two hands on wheel' driving.  I used the term 'floaty' before, the wheel would have a spot in the middle that you could move back and forth that wouldn't really affect direction, then it would take effect.  I am pretty sure that was the steering gear geometry being wrong from being up so high.  It had a fresh alignment and tires when I got it, but no spec sheet to see what the actual alignment values were.

I liken the previous steering 'feel' to be very similar to riding in one of the Ford 4X4 trucks with a lift, but without the dropped pitman arm / modified drag link.  When you raise the front suspension, it takes the drag link from horizontal to angled.  This causes 'bump steer', where the truck steers itself as it goes through the dip.  I found the camper had similar, so it was second nature to adapt to it. (I have a bit of time in 4X4 trucks...  (nod)  Most, if not about all with lift kits.  )   

The stock setup was within factory specs, but I think maybe right on the edge. One loaded, and back squatted a bit more, it was probably off.  Most RV drivers probably chalk it up to 'RV Handling'  and threw a bunch of other parts at it to address the symptoms. 

AFTER:
Now that the drag link and tie rod are much closer to parallel, and the front lowered down to the stock ride height, things are MUCH more stable.  Night and Day level of 'more stable'.   Friday was a 22+ hr day for me,  up at 02:30 fri and driving home at 00:30 sat.  Before, with the crosswind and fatigue, I would be drained by the drive home. Now, it is similar to driving my little Nissan Frontier!  One (1) finger at the top of the wheel, goes where I want it, and bumps/dips require no correction. I gave the promoter a ride for the last ~20 miles, and he was VERY impressed by the power and handling of the RV.

I was on the path to get the oversize front bar and rear sway bar and rear track bar... but it is SO much better now  US1 in takes a couple hard turns, and I pushed the cornering as far as I trusted the load inside not to go flying. I was still cornering harder than most would consider reasonable for a RV, and it was VERY comfortable. Tires didnt even start to talk back.  If the opportunity is presented, I may have to try some 'G Force' testing. In a camper.  roflol

Not sure why, but I swear that the rear ride is softer now also. With no data to back it up, I am hesitant to mention it.  Not even sure why it would be, so maybe its just the incredibly nice ride and handling up front has me smiling at everything.   heartshower

Cant wait to try the trailer behind. May have to put the ball down a bit, it needed a 2" rise before ride level.

If anyone is near exit 176 off of I-95 in Florida, I will gladly give you a ride, and/or let you drive.  I sincerely regret I do not have hard 'Before and After' ride quality data to back up the results I feel.  I have absolutely NO regrets that I did this, and would recommend it to anyone with a 2350 on the same Ford chassis.
Title: Re: Replacing Front Coil Springs With Lesser-Rated Ones On Our 2007 E350
Post by: Volkemon on October 17, 2019, 05:56:09 am
Well hey... another month gone by!

Towed the trailer to SOSMP,  about 300 miles each way.

Going up, pouring rain and gusty winds. Other traffic limited us to ~70 mph, but handling was a DREAM. Even with the trailer, full fuel, 20 gal in the fresh tank and Mrs V loading up the inside it STILL feels softer in back. And the steering/handling is car like. Pleasure to drive. Mrs V and the Grandson were in the back bed for most of the trip, she said the ride had less bumps/sway - last time they were having trouble coloring.  (nod)  This time it was a breeze. Same road, same load, worse weather than last trip. New front springs the only difference. Guess thats as close as I get to 'scientific data' on this project.  roflol

Used the 2" drop receiver insert -  the ball is 'in line' with the tube. The trailer wasnt level, the rear was a bit low.

There is a 3 1/2 I will try next.   I would like the trailer tongue a bit lower to unload the rear tires on the trailer. Should also tranfer a bit more weight to the camper. The 'arse' end of my camper now stays up when loaded.  I am NOT complaining!  2o2

I have yet to take a pic with the trailer. Sorry.  >( Try to get my act together and post some one of these months.