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V10 H.P. Reduction?

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Joseph

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V10 H.P. Reduction?
« on: July 11, 2018, 05:12:49 pm »
I noticed the given HP ratings for the V 10 have gone way down. The 3 valve went from 362 to 320 and the 2 valve thatís in our rigs has gone down to 288. I canít find anything to give reason as to why itís apparently been detuned.  Ford has V6 options with higher HP and torque ratings.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2018, 05:19:15 pm by Joseph »

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Volkemon

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2018, 05:14:49 am »
That is interesting, I found the specs here - https://www.ford.com/commercial-trucks/chassis-cab/models/f450-xl/ 

I noted that the HP specs for the V10 are at 4000 RPM... and it doesnt say PEAK torque... I wonder if they are de-rating it for some reason.

Note the RPM for earlier V10 ratings -

Horsepower*:
1999 MY                305HP @ 4,250 RPM
2000 - 2004 MY     310 HP @ 4,250 RPM
2005 - 2010 MY     362 HP @ 4,750 RPM

source - http://www.dieselhub.com/specs/ford-6.8-triton-v10.html


Found some for newer engines.. 

2018          288hp @4,000 rpm. 424 lb-ft torque @ 3,000rpm
2016          385hp @ 5'500 rpm. 405 lb-ft torque @ 4,500rpm

Source -   https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1455665-2017-v10-lower-hp.html


I think this may sum it up - (sourced from above link)

Quote
Try and find out what rpm they are taking the hp rating at and compare it to the rpm that it was rated at before, it could be like the lower numbers the 6.2 has when you go to a F350, same tune same motor but they pull the numbers at a lower rpm so it looks derated to please the government.


Looks like that may be the case...

Quote
According to the articles I've read on the subject the engine is essentially the same. However to meet the newest emission standards it is certified at a lower RPM than previous years. Given that the newest models also include a 6 speed transmission the performance is equal to or slightly better than the pervious model years.

Source - http://www.irv2.com/forums/f23/new-2017-f53-v10-hp-314979.html

Looks like its just a numbers game, and not a 'true' reduction of engine performance.
 

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #2 on: July 12, 2018, 06:50:31 am »
I wonder if certain state laws are changing, charging manufactures more to sell their vehicles rated over a certain horse power, and Ford is playing with their specifications to work around the changes.

Or it could be that Ford had to (or wanted to) re-rate horse power closer to realistic RPM usage.  I had always wondered about posted specs on horse power at such high RPMs.

I would be surprised that Ford actually de-tuned the V10.....but you never know.
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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #3 on: July 12, 2018, 07:23:43 am »
We've never had an RV with anything but the Ford V10 (ok we did have two diesels - that's another story though).  Anyway, I was extremely impressed with the new 6 speed transmission/V10 combination on the drive home last month (E-450).  If it's de-rated, I never noticed and we drove 600+ miles up and down hills and at around 70 mph the whole way.  In fact, I was very impressed with the improved drive-abilty with the 6 speed combination.

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Volkemon

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #4 on: July 12, 2018, 07:35:26 am »
I hardly think it is state law on HP rating, its just a case of emissions testing and passing.

As the second quote in my post above said,
Quote
However to meet the newest emission standards it is certified at a lower RPM than previous years.

In other words, the engine will pass emissions at 4000 RPM, where it is producing 288HP. If you rev it up to 4750, you WILL get ~360HP, but it will NOT be within emissions requirements at that RPM. So, they de-rate the motor to 288, and get it certified at that HP by federal emissions testing. 

The 'penalty' they pay for that is looking weak when people are comparing HP ratings. If you dont understand the emissions reason for the de-rating, it sure looks like they have lost a bunch of power. They have not, but cannot claim the peak horsepower because it falls out of emissions compliance at that level.


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Joseph

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #5 on: July 12, 2018, 09:30:06 am »
The more I search the more I agree, itís a numbers game most likely for emissions .  Most likely for states like Ca and Or.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 09:46:13 am by Joseph »

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Volkemon

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #6 on: July 12, 2018, 09:37:15 am »

 I had always wondered about posted specs on horse power at such high RPMs.


The posted specs on a motor are usually peak values - peak torque, peak HP etc. The graph below shows a typical horsepower/torque plotting:



Note the peak of each curve. This signifies the maximum value reached. (Apologies to the engineers out there for the following..)

To simplify, Torque is the amount of force an engine can give, horsepower is how quick it can deliver that amount of force. (HP = Torque x RPM ų 5252)  Thats why even though torque has dropped off, the faster RPM causes the engine to be doing more work. BUT... even spinning it faster wont make up for the torque loss at higher RPM, so HP drops off.

GEEK WARNING! Really boring stuff follows.

For maximum performance in acceleration, one wants to have each gear begin just below the torque peak, and end just after the HP peak. So, in our graph example above, if you shift into 2nd gear at ~3500 RPM, and keep it in until ~5500 RPM, you will be in the motors powerband. Ideally, shifting to 3rd would drop it to 3500 RPM again, go to 5500, then 4th drops it to 3500 etc. This gives maximum acceleration.

Ever see people race and they 'wind out' the engine in each gear? They are slower than the racer that shifts to stay in the powerband. By revving the motor to 6500 RPM they are getting LESS force than if they had shifted early. (Also, when they do shift up, and the transmission is properly set up for the powerband, they will now be above the torque curve.)

Sometimes stock transmission gears make you rev out of the powerband. In Air Cooled VW's, the transmission is set to account for heavy loads, and for highway cruising. So there is a big 'gap' between 2-3 gear in the ratio. This allows heavy loads to be pulled, but also allows for lower RPM at highway speeds. But in terms of our 'perfect' racing transmission, the gears are spaced wrong. Similar to a 5 speed transmission missing 4th.. the stock gears would be 1st, 2nd, 3rd and a 1/2, and 5th.  So when shifting up, one must rev 2nd above the HP peak so when 3rd is selected it is closer to the torque peak. Racers change the 3rd and 4th gear ratios to make them 'even' again, to maximize acceleration, and put up with the high RPM's on the freeway.

So, hope this gives a little clarity as to why they rate the HP at such a 'high' RPM, even when our use of the motor we rarely get that high.


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Joseph

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #7 on: July 12, 2018, 09:50:09 am »
Volk, which is how 5 star tuning plays with shifting patterns and gives better performance with no changes to hp or torque .
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 09:55:19 am by Joseph »

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Volkemon

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #8 on: July 12, 2018, 10:20:07 am »
Volk, which is how 5 star tuning plays with shifting patterns and gives better performance with no changes to hp or torque .

Thanks!  I was unaware of this. (link for the V10 kit - https://5startuning.com/product/7015fs/ )

Looks like its well worth $500. Driving back from our April festival I was VERY frustrated with the downshifting action while on cruise control, I had to turn it off to stop the (IMO) unnecessary downshifts...that it would hang on to for WAY too long. With only a 3000# trailer.   pyho
 
*(lemmie look at this closer...)


Just scrolled down and read the tech info for this... looks like a no-brainer. Thats a helluva lot of gain for only $500. I can think of no other modification in that price range that would deliver such results. AND you can return to stock settings. I cant see a downside!

....and it DOES increase HP and Torque with no hardware changes. 42HP and 75 (!) Ft/lbs at 3500 RPM. Scroll down to the black and grey chart with the yellow header.

Thanks again Joseph!   tymote

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Joseph

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #9 on: July 12, 2018, 12:56:15 pm »
Volt, I didnít see the hp and torque data. I assumed it worked solely on the shift points. I did a lot of review reading and cant say I ever found a true negative. I read some who hoped for more but none that said they made a mistake. Iíve been considering adding it myself but havenít pulled the trigger.

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Joseph

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #10 on: July 12, 2018, 01:15:16 pm »
Volk, I havenít found the hp and torq data for the 2 valve, only the 3 valve.  Iím sure the data isnít there  or a call would answer those questions.

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Volkemon

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #11 on: July 12, 2018, 02:04:49 pm »
Volk, I havenít found the hp and torq data for the 2 valve, only the 3 valve.  Iím sure the data isnít there  or a call would answer those questions.

Ok...found this - accuracy unknown -

""The Super Duty trucks got the 3V in mid-2005. The E-vans never got the 3V, those are all 2V.""

source - https://www.f150online.com/forums/v8-engines/437079-v-10-what-best-year-engine.html

And this -



2-valve
Vehicle Name       Production Years                  Engine Output                                          Notes
Ford E250-E450
F53 Motorhome           1997Ė2004                    305 hp (227 kW) 420 lb⋅ft (569 N⋅m)         ratings for 2000 and later model years

Ford F250-F550
F53 Motorhome            1997Ė2004                    310 hp (231 kW) 425 lb⋅ft (576 N⋅m)         ratings for 2000 and later model years

Ford Excursion             2000-2005                    310 hp (231 kW) 425 lb⋅ft (576 N⋅m)          ratings for 2000 and later model years

Ford E350 & E450   2014- Current                   305 hp (227 kW) 420 lb⋅ft (569 N⋅m)          E350 and E450 available only as chassis cab and cutaway after 2015

But no data for 2005-2014?  Next chart down lists

F450-F550 Chassis Cab   2005Ėpresent             288 hp (215 kW) 424 lb⋅ft (575 N⋅m)   THERE is our 288HP....  (nod)

source - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Modular_engine#6.8_L_V10


http://www.blueovaltrucks.com/tech-articles/gas-engines/ford-6-8l-v-10-engine/  lists similar charts.  :beg 


A little good news for me, a 2006 owner..

Quote
Yes, you are correct. Had a lengthy conversation with my Ford Dealership. Apparently there is a "middle" generation of the V10's. The early engines had the 2 problems with spitting out spark plugs and snapping exhaust manifold studs. There was a revision of the heads that gave more thread contact area for the spark plugs. He was not sure when that occurred, but thought it was around late 2003. Those heads appear to be most sought after. Then came the 3 valve and that brought about new and improved problems. Spark plugs actual snap off in heads. He told me a 2005 V10 prior to the 3 valve heads were the ideal engines.

and maybe on making a positive ID.. 

Quote
An easy way to tell is the 2-valve has plastic valve covers, the 3-valve has aluminum valve covers.

Both of the above sourced from https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1168393-3-valve-v10-or-2-valve.html




So, similar performance. Gain is ~50HP for the 3 valve, but still not sure which we have in a 2005-2013 E350/450   (WH)

 I am really gonna think hard on that 5star kit. There's the extra power...    tymote  again for letting us know it exists!

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CalCruiser

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #12 on: July 12, 2018, 09:26:51 pm »
To the best of my knowledge  3 valve heads were never used on the E-series due to space constraints and related heat issues.

Think of horsepower as what gets the wheels up to speed and torque as what maintains it.
I can't find a dyno chart for the 20 valve  engine, but according to this guy peak torque is from 2100-4000 rpm. If his data is good revving the V10 beyond  3800 rpm is a waste,  regardless of  the total number of forward gears or ratios , and cruising at 2100 rpm should give the best fuel efficiency because the engine is already producing it's maximum  torque without having to breathe heavily.

  #7 
HillHound's AvatarHillHound , 09-28-2002 12:11 AM
HP/Torque Curve graphs for V10??
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 28-Sep-02 AT 01:14 AM (EST)]In case anyone's interested-I finally found the stock Ford engine torque curves I was looking for.

I picked up at a local Ford dealer a 53 page "2002 Commercial Vehicles" brochure and it has torque/hp curve graphs for ever Ford truck engine from a 4.2L V6 right up to the 7.2L Cat! Very nice and a ton of interesting info to pour over. Of course it's all stock info at flywheel output I guess. Some points about the V10:

The hp & torque curves cross @ about 3800 rpms and at that point the engine is at 300hp & 400lb-ft.

My truck with auto trans. & 3.73 gears cruises interstate speed at 70mph at 2000rpms. At 2000 rpms the 6.8L is at about 260hp and 380lb-ft.

It makes at least 400lb-ft of torque from about 2100rpms to 4000rps after which it drops off to about 325lb-ft at 5000rpms. The curve is about as flat as it gets for a modern gas engine.

 
« Last Edit: July 12, 2018, 09:48:14 pm by CalCruiser »
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Volkemon

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #13 on: July 13, 2018, 08:43:36 am »
(cheer) heartshower   WoooooooHooooo!   heartshower (cheer)

Got one coming. They had one in stock that was open box, so $100 off.

I am sincerely hoping that this is the best $400 I have put into the coach. Will update as things get tested!

 2o2  I am PUMPED!!   (exactly)   

Thanks Joseph!   :)(:

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Joseph

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Re: V10 H.P. Reduction?
« Reply #14 on: July 13, 2018, 02:46:20 pm »
Volk,  I feel a bit of more power envy building!  I look forward to reading your review.