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Quality

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rvrunner

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Quality
« on: February 12, 2019, 08:27:10 am »
I've been reading old posts. turns out I'm not the only one disappointed in PC quality. I see another owner checked the capacity of the 23 gal tank and came up with 17. Why doesn't PC change that information? I also noticed a lot of problems with maceorator and dump valves. PC is the only builder that uses this. Can anyone tell me what the benefits of an electric dump valve are? I unhooked one of mine and it's faster and trouble free plus you can feel if the valve is working freely. I think anyone who ordered a PC last year was left in Limbo. When I ordered, not one suggestion was made about options or custom work, not even a mention about the spare tire being an option. Turns out both salesmen quit and new buyers were on there own. I expected better.   

  Lynn

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fandj

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Re: Quality
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2019, 08:57:12 am »
We were skeptical about the macerator system when we purchased our PC in that we were accustomed to the conventional dump systems.  After using the macerator system for a short period we found we liked it much better than the non assisted system.  We did have a hole develop in the dump hose which Phoenix supplied me with a new replacement hose.  When the hole developed we used the gravity by pass system and found it ok but not nearly as convenient and somewhat messier in needing to deal with the separate and larger dump hose.  I used silicone repair tape on the defective hose and we are still using it and have the new replacement hose in reserve when needed.


We have camped for many months and have used the macerator system in boondock mode with both valves closed and opened for dumping as well as with site sewer connections.  When site sewer is available we leave the gray valve open and dump the black only as needed.


After almost 3 years of use I much appreciate the macerator system for its convenience, speed of dumping, and better sanitation.  I think once you get your mechanical issues resolved you also will appreciate having the macerator system.

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Volkemon

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Re: Quality
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2019, 09:05:07 am »
Lynn, thank you for posting!

Mrs V and I are on our 'RV' journey, and PC was her favorite for both design, and the factory direct sales. We have a 2006 2350 now, and were looking at a 29-31 foot in 5 years (well, 4 now). The ability to order from the factory, customize and monitor the progress all factory direct... golden.

Fortunately we came in at this time of change, and have gotten to see the effect on customers. Now with the move towards outsourcing the sales... (did you see this ? https://www.phoenixusarv.com/community/index.php?topic=3547.msg30121#msg30121) sure isnt a positive indicator for what we are looking for. Thank you again for sharing, you are helping others with their judgement.  tymote  Wish there was a way we can pay it back!


RE: Macerator and electric valves... on our 2350 the valves would be a real PITA to get to manually. Do-able, but a pain. So I dont mind electric for that.

The macerator pump is a nice feature, and has been a great benefit to us a few times now. Love having it. That being said, it does now stay in the stored position to the side 99.9% of the time, and we just use a 3" hose for sewer. SO much more convenient when parked in a slot.

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Quality
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2019, 10:08:24 am »
Many years ago there was a PC owner of a 2005 or 2006 PC 2400 who went off the deep end complaining on smugmug.  He was almost scary over what I thought were mostly relatively small issues with his PC.  It turned out that he was so upset with Phoenix that he refused to work with them.

Lynn, I know that is not you.  I can only advise to be persistent working with Phoenix over everything that is not working properly.

You already know this, but I will share it anyway.  Regarding general disappointments, you have to either get over them, sell your PC, or consider a trade.  You might be able to trade for another brand with no money exchanged because trade-in value on a one year old PC is quite high.  Chalk up your PC experience as one of education and apply everything learned into something you feel is better.  What ever your decision, you want to enjoy life with your rig, not be irritated by it.

One thing seasoned RV owners will agree on.  Specs on capacities and such are rarely accurate.  I will never be able to pump 55 gallons of gasoline in my Ford E350 fuel tank.  My 42 pound/10 gallon propane tank is worse yet.  I wonder if the volume of the container is the spec, not the quantity of liquid put into it.  There is always empty space in every tank-full of anything.

It's not like food products where the government requires 12 oz of ketchup when the label states 12 oz in a bottle with some air space in the top.

Ron Dittmer
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 10:30:46 am by Ron Dittmer »
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jatrax

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Re: Quality
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2019, 11:52:36 am »
Personally I am a big fan of the macerator.  No fuss, no muss. But I've read people posting on other forums that they don't like it, so I guess personal preference.

The electric valves are used because otherwise (at least on my 2552) you would need to crawl under the rig to open the valve.  Again I greatly prefer the electric valves.  The nice thing about the ones Phoenix uses is that it is simple to disconnect them and use them manually if want to.  So you have the option.

Lynn, I agree with Ron.  PC is not perfect but from my shopping around the quality was the best of anything else in the price range.  You seem to be very unhappy with your purchase and with Phoenix in general.  If I am in a situation where something makes me unhappy I figure life is too short and I make a change.  Maybe it is time to thing about a trade for a different brand.  Why put up with something that makes you unhappy? 

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rvrunner

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Re: Quality
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2019, 04:25:32 pm »
I wasn't trying to make everyone mad, I'm telling you my experience with PC. I agree, I'm complaining a lot. I'm not new to rving. I've bought new a 1991 23 ft Allegro class c 7.3 diesel 117,000 mi., 2006 View 178,000 mi, and 2011 View 239,000 mi. I don't winterize, I run year round. My last View was poor quality so I read the reviews and looked closely on line and ordered the PC. I expected a few small problems, I've had over 20 things that needed attention, most of them were not major repairs. A new one came up today, water leaking in on the cab floor, could be PC or Ford problem. PC has fixed my problems, I'll be going back this spring for repairs, My warranty is until April 10. I don't hate my PC, I like it, I'm tired of the surprises and disappointed with information I received and didn't receive from PC. I told one of the PC owners at Duluth that there tank capacities were off by quite a bit and they really needed to update that, I see it feel on deaf ears. I don't understand why owners on the forum defend PC for this incorrect information. I'd think it would be to everyone's benefit to have the correct specs. I think I could learn to like the maceorator if it was dependable. I believe PC has had this dump system for years, mine starting having problems shortly after I got it. Most forums have 2 or 3 people who do most the posting, I see the PC forum is no different. I have 30,000 miles on my 2018 2400, I will not be selling it and taking a 20,000 dollar or more loss. I've had the 2 most frequent posters disagree with me so that's probably the end of this thread.

  Lynn
 

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jatrax

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Re: Quality
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2019, 05:20:18 pm »
Lynn, you are not making anyone mad, at least not me.  No one here thinks PC is perfect and you have certainly had far more troubles than many.  So you certainly have a right to complain.  All I'm saying is that if I was as dissatisfied as you are I would sell whatever it was (camera, computer, house) and get something I really like because life really is too short. 

As to the tank specs I really do not know what to say.  Mine are correct and that is the only thing I can say for certain.  If the specs are correct for an off the line unit but yours are different why would they change the specs?  And why are your capacities different?

You say you have had over 20 things that needed attention and that PC has fixed the problems as they came up, so I do not understand your complaint.  I had 16 items on my fix list after our walk through at the factory and maybe 5 or 6 after that.  All fixed with no argument.  If I had issues that were not fixed, then I would be upset.  But PC has fixed every issue I had with no cost to me and with no complaints.  That is all I expect from anyone.  If your expectations are different I respect that but I'm not sure I understand it.

Build quality and complaints about issues in the RV industry are rampant.  To the point that the industry as a whole should be ashamed of themselves.  But of the all the companies I looked at before buying PC had the best reputation of taking care of their customers.  Not that they had no problems, just that when there were problems they made it right.  Not all other manufacturers have a reputation for doing that.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2019, 05:48:54 pm by jatrax »

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donc13

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Re: Quality
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2019, 05:47:44 pm »
I second Jatrax's post right above this post.

---
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CalCruiser

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Re: Quality
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2019, 03:42:44 am »
That's some serious miles travelled!

If you find an rv customization and repair  shop it would not  be rocket science  to install larger tanks and manual dump valves. Take some rough measurements   underneath to see what might fit.  Pellanden has many different size tanks on their website. The tanks in my non-sanicon equipped 2350 are so far forward that I added an extension to the black water dump connector to bring it out to  the bumper (the grey water dump valve is side facing)

I would not want to take the big depreciation hit either. Better to bite the bullet and modify your 2400 to your liking, and get the rest fixed while it's in warranty. It really sucks that the common rv systems and standard components are now made overseas or with inferior cost- saving  materials, but at least the warranty allows you to get it fixed locally so you don't have to log a bunch of  miles back to Indiana.
going where the wind goes

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rvrunner

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Re: Quality
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2019, 08:19:07 am »
Thanks Cal, I was told at the factory that the tanks could be plumbed so both valves could be worked manually.

   Lynn

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Ron Dittmer

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Re: Quality
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2019, 08:36:34 am »
Lynn,

I am not the least bit mad or even disappointed with you either.  I only wished you could get your issues resolved and find contentment with your purchase.

Given your history with RVing including your PC, the amount of miles you drive them, I wonder if you are on an accelerated wear & tear and inspection schedule.  Given you live in Iowa and you use your PC year round, if you see freezing temps at night, that could contribute to some issues.  But with your experience, I am sure you well educated.

I never dumped measured gallons of water into my waste tanks.  Maybe mine are smaller than spec'd like yours.  Maybe one day I will find motivation to do that.

Please Lynn, keep posting your experiences.
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CalCruiser

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Re: Quality
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2019, 01:28:19 pm »
Thanks Cal, I was told at the factory that the tanks could be plumbed so both valves could be worked manually.

   Lynn

If PC is unable to supply  a complete conversion kit its all  standard off-the-shelf rv stuff, a y-shaped connector/reducer  with a 2.5 side for the grey valve, elbows, and rotating/swiveling flange connectors.  I meant to say that the valve handle for the ds tank  (grey on the 2350)  is on the side and the valve handle for the center tank (black on the 2350) is under the back.
It took me about 1.5 hrs to replace both gate valves but an experienced rv tech could do the entire conversion in the same ammount of time with all the parts pre-configured or in stock.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2019, 09:39:53 pm by CalCruiser »
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BlueBlaze

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Re: Quality
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2019, 08:58:57 pm »
Regarding the electric dump valves, my black water valve got sticky on the last trip.  When I got home, I removed it, cleaned it, and reinstalled it.  Now it works like new again.  Can't hardly complain, though -- it's over ten years old.

Yeah, I'd prefer manual valves too, but not enough to change to them.  When the electric motor couldn't operate my sticky valve, I just disconnected it and operated it manually.

Not sure I understand the macerator complaint.  If you don't like it, don't use it, right?  I doubt that' I'd mess with it if it was me.  Complicated things break, and you can't get more simple than a traditional sewer hose.  I carry mine in a carrier I made from a gutter downspout.  It's mounted right next to the dump port, which eliminates most of the messiness.  But maybe there's some convenience to the macerator system that's lost on me, since I've never had it.  Some previous owner removed mine or maybe it just never had one.

From what I've seen, all motorhomes have really lousy build quality.  The quality I really care about is in the Ford Chassis.  At least with PC you get real wood cabinets and a motorhome that fits through a 10' door.  But if you're starting a petition to lobby the motorhome industry to up their game, I'll sign it -- so long they don't raise their prices.  I've owned three airplanes (one of them new) and none of them cost as much as a new PC.

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Doneworking

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Re: Quality
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2019, 10:15:26 am »
I have had a macerator on an rv for about 13 years now.   I have had a minimum of problems over those years.  I have replaced hoses, adjusted mountings, etc.   I have never had a macerator pump fail to operate properly. 
I dump at my home by pulling up to the curb in front of the house and pumping out through a 100 foot 3/4 inch hose I bought from Tractor Supply on sale for fifty bucks.  It is a little over ninety feet to the sewer clean out cap for the house.
I can pump a pretty good stream of black and gray through that length of hose.  That is the advantage of the macerator for my use.  We come home from a trip, unpack and when I am ready my "dump" is right there. 

As to the quality of rvs, we have had a motorhome of one kind or another since 1983.  They were all Bs or Cs.   I think it is simply undeniable that the overall quality of them has generally gone down over those 36 years.   All that said, we have had few problems with our Phoenix Cruiser.  Now, I do everything "RV" my self as far as maintenance, alteration and repair is concerned.   I do NOTHING on the Ford chassis and have a great independent shop five miles from my home that has taken care of our vehicles for decades.

Tank size?   It is inexcusable in my opinion for any manufacturer to put erroneous measurements in their literature or sales pitches.   Inexcusable.   Why should a buyer pay what these things cost and then have to modify such a basic item as a holding tank?   That being said, I am confident that our 2350 tank sizes are as they were advertised for our 2013 model year.   One of the deciding factors in our purchase was tank size for boon docking .   Quality?   Bought a shirt lately?   A weed eater?   A blower?  A RV cabinet hinge?    Quality is not relevant in a through away society it seems as long as you can finance your purchase on a credit card or at some low rate on a vehicle or toy.   Quality, alas, has become secondary or tertiary.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2019, 10:18:15 am by Doneworking »

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Volkemon

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Re: Quality
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2019, 01:31:04 pm »
I don't understand why owners on the forum defend PC for this incorrect information.
 Most forums have 2 or 3 people who do most the posting, I see the PC forum is no different. .................................I've had the 2 most frequent posters disagree with me so that's probably the end of this thread.

I missed the part where " owners on the forum defend PC for this incorrect information." and will have to look again. Sure, in most any sales literature there is the caveat "Specifications and items described here are subject to change without notice' or similar language- that is a CYA for the seller, and one would expect to find that in todays lawsuit happy society.  I have missed where people here said that PC was OK in installing parts that did not match what the ad said.

Ya know... maybe its a little attitude and outlook here?

In just your post here there are 8 different contributors and yourself. I see many if not all of them pretty frequently. So there are certainly 'frequent posters' but I have not seen anyone 'rule' the board. (Please see Edit below)

 And i dont think this is the first time you have flown the 'THEY wont let this continue' flag. Havn't you expected to be banned before? Forgive me if I am incorrect. It does seem to me that PC is almost strangely absent from this forum, much less policing speech they may not like. I have been surprised at the level of criticism they do allow.

  I do speak up a lot here, especially for a young noob, probably some who wish I would STFU.  :lol  I got a lot of insight and help here reading all the back posts before my membership was approved. I try to do what I can replying and helping, including warnings that I may not have the whole picture.  I often do not.  roflol  But just because i dont know everything is not a reason to stop sharing what I feel may be valuable. Not to mention I get a free lesson when corrected.  (nod)

You put a lot of miles on a vehicle, I commute 60 miles a day to work and have only put on 15,000 miles on my truck this year.  If I read your earlier post correctly, you have put on over 1/2 MILLION miles on new RV's since 1991. Very impressive - thats about 20 times around the globe in 28 years.  :beg  I am surprised with that level of experience these build problems are happening, and so disturbing to you.

I do wish you the best, and hope your issues get resolved. I hope for PC to grow, prosper and be known as the best. Keeps our resale high, and confidence that we will be buying right when its our turn to step up. You have certainly sparked discussions that Mrs V and I have been following with great interest. Please keep posting, your opinions are read and thought about. Thank you for that. But remember - you often find what you look for, so be careful for what you look!  :)(:  Peace.


EDIT - I looked out of curiosity - Congratulations! You are #7 in the top ten topic starters here! I think you are safe from being shut down.  2o2 (https://www.phoenixusarv.com/community/index.php?action=stats)


also... anyone else notice the bold feature doesnt work here?   {b} {/b} in proper brackets (these - [ ] )  does nothing.. Glow does.. never seen that one.. and you can customize it...    WOW!! LOL... ADHD life...  hithere  Hey!  Look!  A squirrel..   
« Last Edit: February 15, 2019, 01:40:44 pm by Volkemon »